Studleys edit

Kathy: Hi everyone. I am so happy to welcome Seth and Melanie steadily to the program. Hey guys,

Hello!

How’s it going today?

It is going well. It is going well. So tell us a little bit about what you guys do currently, where you live.

Seth: Yeah. Okay. Well, my name is Seth. I’m a licensed marriage and family therapist. We live outside of Seattle, Washington, and a little town called maple Valley.

We’ve been married 16 years and we have three kids and we do a couple of different podcasts

right

Melanie: in my name is Melanie Studley. I’m his wife and I do the editing audio engineer side of the show. Together, we do coaching. And then yeah, we have three podcasts, anatomy of marriage, anatomy of family and anatomy of sex.

So yeah, that’s all we do. That’s

Kathy: our whole world. Yeah.

Yeah. And, and raise three, adorable little kids. I’ve seen them on Instagram.

They are

Melanie: pretty adorable. It looks like we have twins. We do not have twins. We’ve got two red-headed boys that are 15 months apart. And then our daughter, they are 12 and 13 and then our daughter is almost nine.

So

Kathy: yeah, we love kiddos.

Oh, okay. You have teenagers. I didn’t

Melanie: realize that

Yeah its a weird.. middle schoolers. Like it’s a whole weird thing, but it’s exciting. Yeah.

Yeah.

Kathy: It’s, it’s a new phase for sure. Well, we want to get to know you a little bit and I have a couple of questions that help us get to know the fun side of the Studleys. If your marriage was a team sport, What would it be?

Seth: Oh, wow. That’s fun. Marriage was a team sport. It would be…

I feel like

Melanie: it would be football cause they’re just constantly getting knocked down and then we drop it. It

Seth: feels right to me.

Maybe it would be the pitcher catcher combination, right. Because the pitcher is always communicating with the catcher and vice versa. So they’re trying, you know, they have an objective kind of thing going on and sometimes they, you know, throw all strikes, which is great, or, you know, give up home runs and kind of blow it. So maybe, maybe that’s a really analogy.

Thats

Kathy: a really fun question, I love that

I’ve loved hearing couple’s answers to that very creative. And it gives you a little insight into, you know, how you view this thing called marriage. What are three words that you would use to describe your partner?

Seth: Exciting hardworking and loyal.

Melanie: Oh, those

are nice!

I Think fun would be the very first one dedicated.

And I wanna,

Kathy: I wanted to say perfect.

Oh boy, you guys have done a lot of work in therapy,

Seth: especially when you’re I have a podcast. We talk about this all the time and like throw it out there. So it’s like, every show we do is kind of a group therapy for thousands of people listened to right.

Kathy: Getting insight into your work. Right. Awesome. What book or person has most influenced the person you are

Melanie: today?

I would say the book is: change your thoughts, change your life. And the person is the author, wayne Dyer. I was transformed by Wayne Dyer’s work. I found it. I don’t know. It was probably five years ago, maybe. Are you familiar with his work at all?

Kathy: A little bit. Not, not

Melanie: intimately.

I mean, I ran into, there was a book or a movie that he made called the shift and you can watch it on YouTube, but he passed away I think a couple of years ago, but he’s just phenomenal.

And his whole thought process is essentially being in the present moment and yeah, I just love him. So he would be my person, my book person.

Seth: Yeah. I have a different answer to that question. And it’s like, sometimes my kids will say, Hey dad, what’s your favorite song? Or what’s your favorite food? Or what’s your favorite city or country?

And I’m like, I don’t have one single. Anything. I like a lot of things, so I don’t have one favorite book or one favorite person. It’s a whole host of books or favorite people. And I tend to go to the, the kind of hero story somebody who has overcome stuff and actually created things and are an inspiration unto themselves and build things and inspire a lot of other people I’m just thinking about like Tony Robbins or Wayne Dyer, or this guy named David Goggins, just there’s there’s, there’s so many of them and I just go back to them and intersperse them all the time.

I don’t know. That’s that’s the answer.

Kathy: And so more, a nonfiction sounds like, yeah.

Seth: Yeah. Okay.

I love the Hobbit and I love Lord of the rings and stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

You love

Melanie: classic hero’s journey stuff. Yeah. But also, yeah. Nonfiction stuff like that.

Kathy: Yeah, I love stories. Both fiction and nonfiction, as you said, of kind of people that face challenges and that hero’s journey, how do you overcome it?

The challenges they faced and, and I’m kind of looking for inspiration, I guess, for sure. Very good. What, what is something Melanie that you took away from that book when you said it’s so transformed you?

Melanie: I think what it was was this it’s a re the book is really big. It’s the change, your thoughts change your life.

And it’s like 81 verses of the Dao of Ching and like how the, how he was inspired to sort of it’s like really meditative, I guess that would probably be the thing that I took away was the meditative quality of how he writes. And he’s, it’s an audio book. I’m a total audio book nerd. I need to hear stuff.

And so it was almost like the first introduction that I had to really deep and slow thinking that was health based, like based on living a really, really healthy and fulfilling life versus just the, the sort of trying to get more like the rat race stuff. It was the first really kind of opposing worldview of that.

And so I would think the meditative side of it was what really was transformative for me. I just love it to pieces.

Kathy: Awesome. Well, I will include that in the show notes and put that on my book list. I’m always looking for good books to read. Alrighty. I want to shift and get a little bit of your story.

We know a little bit about what you’re doing now and, but we’re going to get the back story. Leading up to the passion that you guys have currently for really seeing healthy marriages. Tell us a little bit, so you said you’ve been married 16 years. How did you guys meet?

Seth: Oh, man. Okay. Well, so I’m from South Carolina originally and after I finished undergrad, my friends and I were in a band and we wanted to, after college do this more seriously.

So we all decided to go somewhere that’s really far away. So Seattle that’s about, as far as we could go, we were going to go to like Juneau, Alaska or something. Yeah. But Seattle, you know, it’s a music, a music city. There’s a half of the music scene. So we moved out here and got a record deal and toured and did all kinds of stuff.

And I met her of course at a Starbucks because she worked there and then I started working there at Starbucks part-time when we weren’t touring and on the road. So that’s where we met.

We worked

Melanie: together as friends for like a year. You know, I was dating somebody else and we were just friends and it was so fun because I got to really see when you work at a coffee shop that opens at four in the morning, you get to see a plethora of how people handle stress, how they handle being fatigued.

And so I got to really know him in this fun environment, but it was also like kind of stressful at times, and like a community environment as well. And then like the day I broke up with my boyfriend, we basically went out that day. And it was funny is that we went to this local park is lake wilderness is where we went.

And there was a log in the, like sticking out of the Lake. And we sat on this log and on our very first date, we said, You know, kind of interested in you and you’re interested in me and, but we don’t really want to like mess around. So if we’re going to date, let’s get married and if we’re not going to get married, let’s not date.

And that’s literally how we started. And then eight months later we were married.

Seth: We went like, yeah.

So fast forward, we’ve been married 16 years. We have three kids. And while I was in graduate school, we were also going to a church out here in Seattle at the time. And I was just feeling, there’s all kinds of stress.

I literally had three jobs and internship and full-time graduate

Melanie: school.

Well, and, and this was when we were very first married. So we had, I had a two week old baby and a 15 month old baby. So we had two kids, like four days apart, basically. And so this time it was really stressful because he was doing internships.

He was doing, I think at one point, I mean, he was going to school in Seattle, which is kind of far away from where we live. And so it was just all these stressors of young parent life. And then he confessed totally out of the blue that he had been lying and looking at pornography, but he confessed like, as I was holding our two week old baby and our one-year-old was sleeping in the crib and we were just in our living room and I was postpartum and I just lost my mind and like flew off the handle.

I threw the remote at him. Like every, it really revealed how much I did not know about myself and managing my emotions.

Seth: Yeah. And we know that that’s a really big deal in marriages for, for men, of course, and for women too. But it was just, I had lied to her and it wasn’t very truthful cause I was like, Oh, I don’t want to hurt your feelings or cause more stress.

But of course that just compounding and compounding and it got so bad at one point that you know, we were literally like trying to save our marriage. Melanie, I came home and we were just arguing. Cause that’s all we did basically. And she gave me a black guy. Right. And being, you know, a new marriage, a family therapist, basically a new dad.

We’re like, Oh my goodness, what is going on? Something has to change in me. Something has to change in you. And that really brought to a head where we had no other choice, but to look at this front and center and address it and say, okay, where’s our marriage going? What do we want, what are we responsible for?

And it wasn’t until that point where we like just kind of both switched and said, Oh, I’m responsible for my happiness, my attitude, my whatever. Right. She’s not going to do anything that is going to fill whatever kind of void maybe in me, and then vice versa because so many young couples that get married and say, Oh, everything will be fine when I get married or engaged or when you have a kid.

But that is absolutely not the answer. And I’ve been doing therapy for about 13 years now. And I see that with couples all the time. So it wasn’t until that point, when we like, Ooh, clicks kind of, and it wasn’t just overnight. Of course, that started our transition into just consuming all kinds of content, books, sermons, podcasts, going to counseling, doing masterminds all 24 seven doing the inner work.

And it wasn’t until we were right, I guess, individually to some degree. And then we both got right then our marriage

Melanie: started. Right.

And, and in that too we, I totally lost my train of thought. I was going to say something really great. I was going to say something amazing and it totally flew out the window.

Well, oops, nevermind. And there we are. Oh no, I know what I was going to say. In that time we were looking for resources. But we couldn’t find anything that looked like us. Right? So there was so many books that were very much like clean and tidy, like, Oh honor, and obey and love your spouse and tell them how much you care about them.

And I was like, look, I hate this guy. I hate him. I don’t want to divorce him. And so that was what really started us on the journey of making our show is we wanted to have the resources or to make the resources we wish we had had back then to help couples who are like us. Cause there’s a lot of couples like us.

So, yeah, that’s our journey.

Yeah.

Kathy: And when you say like us, describe what that is that you weren’t finding.

Melanie: There wasn’t a lot of really kind of gritty, like authentic was not super popular at the time. Everything was very like buttoned up very it’s either very clinical or very churchy, and those are fine things, but what I needed was the like, okay, What do you say to your husband when the first thing that comes to mind is I hate you every time they walk in the room, like, what’s the thing you say then?

And so it was that sort of raw kind of really calling a spade, a spade stuff that we were looking for. And you could even statically look at us like we have tattoos and our Seattle grungy people.

So

Seth: yeah, just something who we can identify with in a way, not, not just what the, I think market was saturated with maybe right at the time.

So yeah, one of the, I think you said it it’s we, we provide real help for real couples and we always create the content that we wish we had when we were going through the really hard stuff. Like when your wife punches you in the face or like when you’re, you know, up until 2:00 AM taking care of kids and fighting every single night for like a year and a half.

Yeah, miserable.

Kathy: And I just am so grateful that you guys have had the courage to come out with this authentic story. I followed you on Instagram for a while. I think sometime last year, about this time and using some hashtags and you all came up and I was like, Oh wow, cool. And because to your point, I think a lot of books are written from the point place where you’re at a really good place.

And it’s easy to say yes, sit down and come up with three things that you want to do on your date. But like you said, Melanie, like, I don’t even, I don’t even want to spend time with you right now, but something kept you fighting for your marriage. What was that?

Hmm,

Seth: that’s a good question. And it was, I think we talked about this on a show earlier.

It was the inner knowing. You know, I don’t know. I knew that we could make it through. Right. And there was a point where, you know, Melanie would just send me texts. Like if not daily, every other day or several times a week, I want a divorce.

I was really awful.

I want a divorce I’m divorcing you. And I would just simply write back, no, we’re not getting divorced and not in a domineering and kind of controlling way.

It’s like, you know, I know in my heart that, that is the answer. Things are the worst they’ve ever been right now, but it’s not, we’re not going there kind of thing. And so another thing just kind of clicked in me to where it’s like, Oh my goodness, I can’t believe we’re in this position. Well, the reality, okay.

I had to accept, we were there. I don’t know what to do, but we’re both Christian and grew up that way. All I know to do is pray. So I set prayer alarms. And I think we did that for like a year one when we woke up in the morning, nine o’clock, 12 o’clock 3:00 PM, 6:00 PM. And then at bedtime, right? Or on my phone, we

Melanie: literally did that six times a day for her.

Seth: I called her. I said, Hey, I’m going to pray. Sometimes I wouldn’t even know what to pray. Sometimes she wouldn’t even say anything and just then hang up on me. But I was like, that is all I know to do. And I can’t go wrong with that. It’s like, you, you know, maybe even if, if some listeners are not religious or whatever, it’s like, okay, saving money is not a bad idea.

You are not going to go wrong. You’re not going to be sorry that you saved money, like an emergency fund or whatnot. I was like, okay, that’s all I got. I’m going to lean into that with all I got. And yeah. After that it began to change things, right. It’s like what does that say? A prayer doesn’t change, God, prayer changes you.

Right. And it’s like, yeah. Okay. That changed who we were. Right.

Melanie: Yeah. And for me, there was a faith element where I was like, I really, and it wasn’t something that I was kind of getting from the outside. It was like this inner thing. Like, I don’t really want to divorce Seth, as much as I really hated his guts.

But then the other part of that was I knew even when I was super, super mad at him, I’m like, he’s an awesome dad. And he’s a great friend. And as much as I really like never want to look at him with my eyes ever again, I do think that if we can work this out, it will be better. And so it was like the tiniest teeniest ounce of hope that we could get through it.

That kept me going. And a lot of it did have to do with our kids, but I didn’t want them to be miserable. Like I didn’t want to save the marriage for the kids kind of vibe.

Seth: We weren’t in that kind of trouble.

Kathy: Hmm, but something kept you moving forward. And like you said, when you’re praying for someone it’s really hard to be mad at them.

Right. And for those that may not be spiritual or prayerful people, even just expressing gratitude or what you appreciate about that person is another way to stay focused. I think on. Right. The good things in that person. Right. That can get you through to that other side. But man, it, it sounds like it was a long, it was a long journey and it was what, what were some of the first, Oh, I think of springtime and the little buds that right out of the ground, it’s like, Oh, there’s something that’s growing here.

What, what were some of the first indicators that you had that I think we’re going to make it,

Melanie: I think for me One of the first real signs that I was growing was that I used to journal a lot during this time. And before I just journaled all the time. And I had at some point, this is only a few, maybe even a few weeks or months into that.

The hardest time I looked back in my journal at the days of what I had written on the days that we were going through everything and I was looking at, and I read it and as I was reading it, I could feel, I just felt it in my body, this like dread come back in. It was like I had reinvited this unwanted guest back into my spirit, through rereading what had gone on.

And so in that moment, I’m like, you know what? I don’t need to hold on to that. This is not where I’m, you know, this is not my destination, so why am I even holding on? I ripped those pages out and literally burned them in the bonfire. So I’m like, I don’t need that. And I will never grow if I have that.

Almost like cancer just stuck in my story. And so that, to me felt really freeing really like, no, I am letting go of that. And I’m choosing on purpose to not walk that journey anymore. And even, I just, it felt so visceral. Like my heart just sunk when I read that. And so that was kind of one of the bigger moments for me of like, Oh, there can be like, it was like a little tiny bud opening in the springtime and you go, Oh, it’s not going to be winter forever.

You know?

Seth: Yeah.

I think just more days of waking up and not feeling dread because of the night before we had maybe had a good conversation or okay. We hugged or, you know, a kiss or something like that, wasn’t just awkward. It was like normal, you know? So just like little glimpses of hope, like little spring buds, as you said, would come up and just give me hope and give me hope and actually be able to see.

Oh, things, things are changing.

Melanie: Okay.

I love that analogy of like buds. I love spring. It’s like my, one of my absolute favorite seasons. And what’s funny is that I’m realizing now in spring, I look for buds actively. I look for them when we say we talked about it. Like even the blackberries have little tiny buds on them.

And so it is almost that sort of like reminds me of that, of when you’re trying to make transformation in your life, look for the buds. It’s not going to be big changes. You’re not going to see an Apple tomorrow, but there’ll be a tiny bud, you know,

Kathy: and it’ll get bigger every day, if it has the right conditions, right.

If it doesn’t get any rain or not enough sun, it could die or you could yank it out and you know, really kill it. Right. That’s really good. And I think in that process too there had, to be a trust factor of. Both of you regaining trust. And I heard someone say one time that trust is consistent behavior in the same direction.

And so again, that idea of, okay, here’s a little bit, I heard you say Seth, you know, there’s a little bit of anxiety or anticipation about how’s today going to go. And so if today goes, well, then we can add that and we can add that. And gradually it becomes at some point to the place where it’s hard to remember, gosh, what was that place where I couldn’t trust you or where I didn’t trust myself with my emotions or whatever the case may be.

Seth: Yeah, it’s, it’s cumulative. And basically just adding up and adding up, it’s like walking over or driving over a bridge. There’s a lot of bridges in downtown Seattle and I’ve gone over this bridge. Didn’t crack. I didn’t fall in the water. Okay. Let me try it again and try it again. And Oh, okay. This is solid now.

Right?

But also trust takes a really long time to build. It can be broken in an instant. Right. And that’s what happened with us. And, but through consistent actions over and over and over, it’s just like, and it takes a long time. It’s like you don’t build an overpass bridge in two days either. It usually takes at least a year.

So keeping that in mind, if couples are working on rebuilding trust or continuing to maintain that trust, it takes work.

Right. And

Melanie: I think there’s sort of two ideas with trust that pop into my head. Cause one was, he was doing that daily prayer thing. Right? He has set prayer alarms. He did it on his own.

I didn’t ask him. He did it when I was mean to him. He did it if I was nice to him, which was basically never, he did it no matter what, no matter where we were, if he was in a meeting, he would step out and call me if I was grocery shopping, it didn’t matter. So he built trust, on his own without being asked all of that stuff.

And that was deeply important to me as a person whose trust had been broken. And then. Sort of a second thing that comes to mind when I think about trust and rebuilding it is that like when you build a bridge, you don’t just build the bridge. The bridge is being held up by supports like a ton of extra stuff.

Is there during the building process that we often don’t realize is there. We just say, Oh, they’re building a bridge. Like they’re putting the bridge sticks together, but they’re really not there. There’s like the bridge, they’re scaffolding, there’s things, holding it up all the time, the whole way through. And when we are rebuilding trust in a wounded or injured relationship, We often need lots of extra support.

So whether that’s prayer, a community, your family, a good friend who supports and loves your marriage and looks for the best in your spouse, even though they’ve done something bad or whatever, that support is always there when you’re trying to rebuild a bridge. And so I think that’s a really important factor that I just don’t hear people talking about that much, that what, who we surround ourselves with in the rebuilding process is hugely important.

Kathy: So true. I could not agree more. And you know, I, I was a marriage and family therapist for many years, and now I do coaching and some writing, but I saw a lot of couples in that time. And it was always heartbreaking when you would see couples that maybe hit that point and they’re like, that’s it. I’m outta here.

I’m done. But they don’t do that inner work, as you said, that was part of the important thing that both of you did was to do that inner work. I remember I had a couple, it was a really long time ago. So I think we’re way beyond the bounds of competence, no names here, but this couple came and he had some issues with alcohol and he wasn’t really willing to face it and they ended up divorcing and then I saw him alone.

And I remember so clearly saying to him, you need to not date anyone for like, at least a year. You need to work on yourself. And, you know, because a marriage is always two people, whether it’s good or whether it’s falling apart, both people contribute. And I said, you need to figure out what your part was in it.

Well, I might as well been talking to a brick wall because about, I. I don’t remember the timeframe now. It was less than a year. Yeah. Remarried sitting, sitting on my couch with a new wife. Oh man. Could have hit a button on the tape recorder with her concerns. And I was just like, I don’t know, you know?

Right. So it’s, it’s so powerful and great that you guys share that the hard parts of your story, because that’s part of what led me to launch this podcast is we talk about entrepreneurs a lot and hold them up as gurus kind of, you know, Steve jobs, wonderful guy, but man, his relationships suffered. Right.

And I’m just a real believer that we can change this narrative that you have to give up everything to have a successful business. So tell us a little bit about the business that you guys now have evolved, like how did this business begin and what does it look like along

Melanie: the way?

Well, again, it, it just developed out of our, it started with creating the show and the show is essentially just a resource for couples.

And we have such a heart for wanting to help people, like how can we talk about everything that Seth learned in graduate school in a way that everybody can understand that everybody can apply. So our whole mission has been helpful tools, helpful resources, realistic concepts, realistic, and practical tips and all that stuff.

And then slowly that morphed into people started sending us questions on our show. So we started answering their questions and it slowly that turned into, do you do therapy? Like, can you see whatever? So then that turned into coaching, which we love. Coaching is like our zone of genius for sure. And we coached together.

So we, we see clients together and I mean, I’ll just show it. I’ll share like my big gigantic picture dream. I don’t know if you know who Joyce Meyer is. She’s a preacher lady. Some people hate her. She’s a preacher lady, but I adore her and I want to be the Joyce Meyer of marriage where like you and I just do have a budget and resources.

Like most of them are free. And then we do some things where people come and do events with us or go out and do retreats and stuff. Cause this is something we’re just so deeply

Seth: passionate about.

Yeah. I think about the entrepreneurial side, we were talking about this a couple of months ago and sometimes folks are entrepreneurs because like, Oh, that’s the thing to do or that’s the label you want?

And then I own my own business, but well, okay. What is that? Well, I don’t know. I never work on it, basically nothing, but I have an LLC, so that counts, but I was just, we were talking about this and there’s, there’s been an entrepreneurial spirit in me for about as long as I can remember, I had my first job when I was 14 pumping gas at a gas station, running the store, and then like little things.

Well, yeah, it’s, it’s not legal now, you know, in the South, whatever. And me and my friends started a window washing business. We started a landscaping business. I had my own furniture building business that I would get old barn furniture and make and deliver to people. And then being in a band when we’re taking it seriously, it’s a very much startup business.

That was our main source of income. Right. And then, so I’ve always had that, that I guess that, that drive to- wait a minute, this really interests me. I don’t see it anywhere. Let me speak to it and see what I can create. Right. And I’ve been doing that as program developer and clinical supervisor in my former job.

So it’s always that. And then this is just more flight. Okay, we, here we go. And I, I, part of me, I think, I don’t know, I’m not tooting my own horn or anything, but just like contract language and starting LLCs and doing this. And it’s just, that comes easy to me where it, I don’t think it does to you, but then as a business partner, because basically we’re literally business partners and life partners you, you do, and you speak to my non-skilled, right?

Well,

Melanie: I do like content creation side, so that’s all of my brain space goes to that.

Seth: Been really, really fun because we are very hard workers and it’s almost like this feels like the water we swim in and like just a fish doesn’t know. Oh, well, wait a minute. Of course I can breathe under water. I’ve never even thought about it before.

This is just kind of. Not, it’s not kind of, it is what we do. And it’s just what we do. Sure. Let’s talk about it. Let’s let’s build, let’s visualize and let’s go make it happen, right?

Kathy: Yeah. Did either of you have entrepreneur mentors, like, did you have a parent or a close family friend that had their own business, or you said

Melanie: I can do that.

My dad is not quite, he’s not an entrepreneur necessarily, but he started a bunch of things. So my dad is native , we’re, native American on my side. I don’t look native American at all, but we are, my grandma was raised on a reservation. My dad is super dark and they, he was basically really poor when he was a kid.

And now he’s the head of a giant corporate he’s a CEO of a company has thousands of employees and he does really great work. He, he works in helping fields. So he has, they run soup kitchens, they house the most homeless people in Seattle. So my father was really inspirational in the sense of like, you can do anything, like if you do good work, money will come.

So he was really motivational and very inspiring and still is with me just following the dream of whatever work I wanted to pursue. And I think he was very happy that it ended up being like helping work.

Seth: Yeah. That’s a great question. And my dad also was in business for himself, but it was always just one small business. He never had employees or anything. He was just as the sole proprietor of, of what he did. And I, I don’t know. It’s just, I, I see something and if I have the right amount of jazz about it it gets in my brain and it goes, all right, we, we are off to the races and sometimes that’s not so helpful to a marriage.

ADD helps.

Kathy: Yeah. With add though, it’s hard sometimes to get that focus or when you do focus, it becomes so narrow that you lose.

Melanie: Yeah, we have lots of like operating procedures to weed out the add vibes. Cause sometimes it’s like, okay honey, we can’t chase everything that sparkles. And then it works in our favor.

Kathy: Yeah. Yeah. And you said something earlier, Seth, about all these different interests. And are you guys familiar with Marie Forleo?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Well she talks a lot about multi. How did she term it? Multi

Melanie: interests. Multi-discipline yeah. It’s like

Kathy: multi interests, like people that have lots of different interests because that’s kind of her story.

She chased this and then that she really thought there was something wrong with her. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs also, if they don’t have someone that can validate that approach, they kind of think something’s wrong with them too. That was my husband’s story. He was like, until he was 40 something, he thought there’s something wrong with me.

I just can’t seem to hold a job and work eight to five, like other people I’m always thinking of something better, new ideas. Right. And we didn’t have that word entrepreneur.

Melanie: Right?

Seth: Yeah. Yeah. It’s weird. It’s a, it’s a balance I, as, as I’m hearing you talking, I, I had started a private practice and did that for three years and had a whole clientele and the office and all that stuff while I was doing other clinical agency work 40 hours.

So I was just like working all the time. But yeah, that’s, I have felt kind of, Oh man, what’s wrong with me, Seth? Why can’t you just focus on one thing? What’s the deal. That’s why I had a hard time answering, you know, what’s your favorite book or most inspirational person. I’m like, I don’t have one. Yeah.

Melanie: There’s a point that the life library of books, we own all

Seth: the things

you could throw a dart and say, yep. That’s why I love that one kind of thing.

Yeah.

Kathy: I totally relate. I do. What in this journey has been a high and a low of working together.

Melanie: I think the highs, what I love and things that stand out to me, I was, when did we get to go to events and have events or co-host events and things like that, that is so exciting to get to travel and see people in real life.

Like we do a lot of stuff virtually. So we do our podcasts. We’re just in our, yeah. Yeah. But when it’s in our studio, we’re just in our house or whatever. But when we get to actually. See people and hug them and cry with them and root them on there is nothing better than that. And I get to turn and see this guy talking to someone else over there and hugging that person who’s crying.

I mean, there’s, there’s just no better feeling in my

Seth: opinion.

Yeah. I, I would exactly sum it up as the highest, like when we were on stage speaking together and it’s not like it’s all about us, it’s just, we’re in the zone of genius and you know, you can yeah. Like different athletes. They talk about a flow state where they’re just.

They’re not even thinking they’re just reacting and it’s, it’s perfect. You know, like a race car driver or a basketball player or a cellist on stage or anything like that. That’s the way that I feel when we’re on stage, like I can be talking about something and then just look at her and she, you know, gives whatever.

And then we just go back and forth. Now, some of the low huh?

Lots of lows.

Well, there are, and that’s just the ups and downs. So any, any entrepreneur, any, any startup, first of all, But then any entrepreneur individually, and then if you have a husband and wife team. Yeah. Is that a word? A couple preneur . We have to manage the business and all that comes along with that.

And then, Oh, wait a minute. How are we doing? Right. Are we connecting date nights? You know, intimacy, all that stuff. And then of course kids. So I think one of the things where I have maybe something, I think it’s a great idea. Like a direction we should go for an Instagram live or a podcast or whatever.

She’s like, hold the phone, hold on. No, that’s no good. Or that’s not our focus or that’s not our mission, which I always think it is, but we have to have conversations around that and just those real practical things. So it’s like going into business mode. One thing I don’t like either, and this is funny is like in the morning when the first thing she hits me with is like, Hey, we need to talk about our client couple and what, what’s the plan for them

to

Melanie: not having

Seth: this?

We’re not bringing that in right now or like, you know, there’s a quitting time at night and really, really being intentional around that. That’s a constant kind of thing, but we do really good

Melanie: at.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think for me, it’s like, until I realized that our lows quote unquote lows were actually points of like, we could learn from each one of them before I understood that there was a lot more lows.

I would be mad at him for having an idea for Instagram live. Like, I’d be like, Oh, why does he think that’s a good idea? What an idiot. Like, I don’t know why I was so moody about it, but then I realized I’m like, wait, I can learn. Why does he want to do that? What is that? Like? What does that touch in him that is inspiring?

Maybe I can learn from this. And so in a way, our lows, when we have the right mindset can become learning moments and moments to understand ourselves and our spouse more deeply, which is great. But before then I was just kind of mad a lot.

Seth: Yeah.

Oftentimes I get, I like Gary Vaynerchuk a lot, you know, daily experience and he’s an entrepreneur and several other entrepreneur podcasts that I get.

And some of that things, because she hasn’t maybe not into Gary V so much, but he’s just like, espousing, you gotta do this. You know, attention is everything. Where are people going? You know? And I’m like, Hey, it might be smart if we get into this platform. And sometimes we have conversations. We can’t add another thing.

We’re doing Instagram live and Facebook and all that. And YouTube live and all the platforms are Tik TOK or clubhouse or whatever’s going on. And it gets too much. So sometimes I feel like, Oh, we’re leaving an opportunity on the table, but then she helps to kind of slow down. And then of course, if I think it’s a good idea, still we’ll have a conversation about it and lean into it.

Hm.

Kathy: And it’s a little challenging, I would think when you work together as a couple, doing couples work about communication and surely you have days when you still periodically go, Oh, I’m really mad at you. Or I don’t like you very much today. How do you handle those times when you’ve got to put on the happy face?

Melanie: We’ve worked really hard on that, because that was something we’ve never wanted to be fake. So there have been times when this is I don’t know, maybe a year ago or something like that, where we had had like arguments and we said, we’re not doing the podcast today. Like that is not fair to our listeners.

That’s not right. We shouldn’t do that. And so we’ve worked really hard on mending things earlier, but even now, I don’t think we get mad at each other the way we used

Seth: to,

even on the opposite of that. Cause we’ve done a couple of times of 100 days of a of m, like 100 days straight, like no fail. I don’t care if somebody’s sick or mad we’re doing it.

Cause that’s what, you know, kind the, the, the plan was right. And so we would hash stuff out, live, live with our listeners. And you know, I remember when we, when was it probably, maybe in 2019, we were, I was just, I was kind of. Pissed at something, honestly, but we were on live and we were working it out and there were viewers saying, Hey, Seth, you got this for

Melanie: giving us that in real time.

Yeah.

Seth: Which was amazing. Cool. And it was, it was neat because we got to model that. Right. And of course, like, I love Brenae Brown. She’s a big influence as well. You know, leading with vulnerability and vulnerability gives other people unspoken will not unspoken, but clear premonition permission to bring their own stuff.

And like, if we can pave the way, then I’m really comfortable with that. And I’m like, okay, fine. Let’s let’s, let’s talk about it. Yeah.

And I

Melanie: think that goes back to that point of, if we can’t fix it, we can, we can work on it on the show because there is nothing more important to relationships than having a model of healthy conflict resolution.

That’s real. So it’s one thing to see John Gottman at a conference. Pretending to resolve an argument and it’s a whole other thing to see Seth. And I actually do it in real time. And not that John Gottman is obviously he’s great and his work is amazing, but he would be doing like a pretend thing and we’re, and we have real emotions and we’re actually mad.

So so that’s, you know, it’s part of our whole thing. But yeah, it takes a lot of self-awareness I guess,

and

Kathy: encourage courage to be that vulnerable. On a live show. And how do you know where the boundary is? Is there a point where it’s too much?

Melanie: How do you know we’re being vulnerable? You mean

we we havent really talked about it, but we both have kind of a sense of where we are comfortable and then having to take into consideration.

We have children, we have family who watched the show, so we’ve never really talked about it, but we both kind of have a sense of like what things are okay to share and not share. And of course we don’t share other people’s story ever. Like if something happened in my family, I don’t say, Oh yeah, well, my mom did this and my dad did that.

Like that’s not ever,

Seth: yeah.

We’re not, of course like airing family laundry or whatever like that. But I do, we both feel strongly that it is, I feel like not, not a leader. I mean, we’re leaders in, in certain things, of course, but kind of right on the forefront of. Hey, it is okay to share at this level because people like Brenee Brown, I’ve done it.

And you know, they’re, they’re not dead. or hiding in a hole somewhere or whatever. So if they can do it, then I know that I can do it. What kind of work can I do on myself to be able to get up to that level? And like we’re running a business too. So I think if, you know, if we’ve gone on a show before. And we have some, you know, things that we’re going through, we always are able to show up professionally.

Right. Okay. There’s still a job to do. And I, I think that we, I don’t think, I believe that we do a really good job in that way, and we’re still able to be authentic and

Melanie: well,

and I think too, our sharing is missional.

There’s a purpose behind it. We’re not sharing for the sake of like you know, like this is clickbait or whatever we’re sharing, because we want people to understand how you walk through this conflict or how you create resolution here or there, whatever.

So that’s always like a, a kind of a thing we can ask ourselves, why are we sharing this? Are we sharing it for a reason to resharing it? Because. We want to be gossipy. No. So then let’s not share it. So that’s helpful, a helpful way to, for us to frame it.

Kathy: So yeah, there was a live that you guys did. I saw it on Instagram.

I know you always do it on Facebook also. Right? It’s like my brain can handle that, but Seth, you were very vulnerable sharing about a big disappointment. You guys had a meeting that didn’t go the way you wanted, and you can share that story, but it was a very tender moment, Melanie, where you just stopped and turned to him and rubbed his back.

You connected with him. And I think that’s an example of just how you, you modeled. Look, I’m not going to gloss over it. You’re really hurting right now. And I want to be there for you. Right now it was, it was a beautiful picture, but that was a big disappointment. Can you guys talk about that story a little

Seth: bit?

Yeah. Thank you. First of all, for, for reminding me of, of that like moment, you know, I, now I’m clearly remembering like, Oh, what I shared and like the incident where I kind of got choked up and I think he started crying or whatever, because I, it was like, I actually real-time process that. Right. And a part of me didn’t know that it affected me that much, you know?

And so for her to, I mean, thank you for that reminder because like, Oh, that’s sweet. Thank you. Right. So we were talking to. Dave Ramsey folks. Right. And he had reached out to us. They had reached out to us and invited us to Nashville and we’d been back and forth out there a couple of times. And we were kind of on board, of course, nothing was nothing was a hundred percent of course, but we were getting fairly close, like, okay, would you guys move out here?

Are you willing to live here in Nashville?

Melanie: Cause you like be the faces of a marriage rather than the

Seth: Ramsey personalities, right.

Is what they call them. And so that was just all I could think about for for a good, I think we flew out there in October of 20. I don’t remember what it is, but it was like, you know, half a year, eight months of just thinking I was going back and forth, trying to see if this would be a good fit and ended up not being a good fit obviously.

And but I, I just thought it, I was like praying about it and like seeing myself do this and visualizing a lot of stuff. So I spent a lot, probably too much of emotional energy just on that. Right. It wasn’t like an OCD kind of obsessive thing, but it was, if we’re going to move across country with our three kids and all this stuff, this is clearly a very big deal and will impact not only us, but our kids and all of our families and relationships.

Right. So there’s a lot of emotional energy around that. And long story short, it ended up, okay. You know, you guys just, I don’t, I don’t think we’re going to be a good fit. And this was like a week before we were

Melanie: slated to go out there

Seth: again, slated to go out there again and speak to the entire thousand person company at one of

Melanie: their events.

Right. Like things arranged babysit, like everything,

Seth: everything, tickets, car, everything. Right.

So. Hey guys, I don’t think this is going to work out. And I remember being on the phone call with them and just, you know, hanging up and of course, caveat, major caveat. If something isn’t meant to be, that doesn’t mean that you know, there’s a huge falling out, or people got mad or somebody did something.

So nothing like that, we, we literally well after the fact, because I was like, Oh, what’s the, what’s the deal. But after the fact, I was like, you know what? I don’t think it would have been a good fit. And they had just seen that sooner than us, I guess. So of course we were disappointed. And so I was in my car and I was just like, almost speechless.

I’d put my head on the steering wheel. And I think I cried. I know maybe not. I was just kind of in shock. Right. And then I called Melanie and, you know, it’s just like, you know, felt like I got punched in the stomach, but I’m processing that. Was a lot, but I said the whole story. What was your view on it?

Melanie: Well, I will sort of go backwards a little bit and it was so exciting.

That was kind of one of the high parts of, I would say, doing this work, we got to go out to Nashville. We got to go to a Ramsey influencer event. Like there is nothing more cool than that. We did a financial peace university when we very first got married. So Dave Ramsey is like someone we esteem so much.

You were

Seth: hanging out with Dave Ramsey,

Melanie: balconies smoking a cigar he’s standing right there. Like it was the weirdest thing. It’s just so trippy. Right.

But it was weird, but also really amazing. And so there was a part of that that was like, How is this? How are we here? Like I always remember saying, have they heard our show?

Like, did they just, why did they pick us? Why are we here? And so part of that experience was really, really amazing. And I would not change it for the world, no matter the outcome. And then when it, and from my perspective, I was fine with whatever the outcome was. I didn’t want to move. I didn’t want to leave my family.

We all live right in the same area. Our kids love their school. So I was not like, yes, it’s the best thing ever week. It’ll be the life changing whatever of the world. But Seth was like, kind of like that Seth was very much like, this is the thing we have to do. And I bet it will work. I know it will work and I feel it will work.

So from a wife’s perspective, it was really a weird to manage. Cause I’m like, I was the whole time trying to tell him, like, it might not work. It’s cool. If it doesn’t work, let’s just like slow our minds down. But that’s just kind of not how it is. So when it didn’t end up working, that was why you saw that moment on the Instagram live, where it was like.

It’s okay. Like, I’m not going to say, I told you. So that would be the worst thing ever in a million years to do. And, and I wasn’t trying, I wasn’t like putting on a show for our listeners. Obviously it was a genuine moment of like, we haven’t processed this and we’re going to do it right now and we’re going to share, and we’re going to be authentic.

Cause disappointments happen in life. Whether that’s personal disappointments, work, disappointments, health, disappointments, financial disappoints, doesn’t matter. People go through these things and if they don’t have a model or see how couples work through it, they don’t know how. And a lot of times people say, well, see, I told you I knew it was going to work.

Why were you so, blah, you know, so having that opportunity to share that moment with our audience was really important for me. And I had to make the clip. I had to make that clear both of us crying. And I was like, ah, that was cathartic. Like it was like, I got to watch it over and over again. But yeah, but it was a big, it was a big thing for us because family lives in the South.

So it was like tied into lots of

Seth: other things. Yeah.

When I say emotional energy, I mean, a lot of rain was going to that, but it worked out how it was supposed to. Right. We’re

Kathy: great.

Yeah. I’m curious what came up out of all of the excitement and anticipation more. So it sounds like for you, Seth, that you were able to maybe look at, okay, well, we can still get pieces of this.

Was there something that came out of that that was positive going

Seth: forward?

I I think for me just being completely immersed in behind the scenes stuff of like all the work that Ramsey does and their just the team work ethic and, and like how everything was professional top-notch that was a new experience for me to, to it, it set a bar for me to some degree, like, and for Melanie too, because we were like, okay, This is the standard that we want to do stuff at, like, okay.

Super hospitable, super like real let’s add value where we can give value and also receive whatever value because you know, everything is reciprocal. But that was one of the main pieces. I think,

I

Melanie: think, well, one of the best things that I took personally was just, they believed in us, they actually called us and that to have people who are doing that amazing of work in the world, helping millions of people saying, I actually believe in what you’re doing.

I see you. And I, and I validate what you’re doing. That was basically all I needed. Like to be like, Oh, it’s right. Like I’m doing good. Yes, I’ll do more. So that, that to me was a huge takeaway that even not, you know, nothing can take that element away from what I took away from it, if

Kathy: that makes sense. Yeah.

So great. Thanks for sharing that. What are some ways that you guys balance each other, in terms of personality, are you more alike or are you different in your

Melanie: personalities?

Really similar qualities. We love experiencing things. So we love, like, let’s just try it. Like, that’s kind of an energy we both really have.

But I think there’s even big cultural differences. Like he’s from the South, he’s kind of like a Southern farming, like you hunt and you do all the things and you catfish or whatever, and that’s not me. So there’s lots of like cultural things that are different. But we do, we have struck a good balance of he helps draw out.

My positive side, I have a tendency to be negative. My family of origin is pretty negative and sarcastic. He helps balance my negative side and bring positivity and I help kind of slow I’ve I’ve often used the example of he’s like a bullet train and family’s like trying to hang on the end. Sometimes I say, okay, I like hit the brakes a little bit, brother.

I need still go fast, but like just slow down. We can’t hold on. And I think we’ve found a good way of communicating when we see the imbalance in one another, without it being shaming or hurtful, if that makes sense. What are your thoughts?

Seth: Yeah, I think very similar things. One thing that came up we, the, the Enneagram is something that has been helpful for me.

Not only personally, but in, in therapy and, you know, for coaching and stuff like that. And we talk about it a fair amount on the show. So I’m a nine and she’s a seven. And. They I think both of those numbers have certain characteristics that support one another, but then also can get kind of goofy at times.

Well, I’m a

Melanie: super. . Are you familiar with Enneagram? Do you do? I’m like a super strong eight wing, so seven, seven with a wing. And so when he doesn’t tell me his opinion, I’ll be glad to tell him mine and like bulldoze him with all my thoughts. So the Enneagram though has been really helpful in helping us understand how to navigate that.

And so I do less bulldozing because man, I had a tendency to do that.

Seth: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. The, the things that we’ve learned about ourselves through the Enneagram work the more I learn about myself and that helps me to articulate to you what I need, what I don’t need. Hey, let me give you an insight on this or you or, or vice versa

Melanie: kind of thing.

I feel like learning about his number was the most helpful thing for me.

Kathy: True. I love the Enneagram for how deep it can go into doing your own work. I know a lot of people try to figure out, Oh, you must be a seven year old fun fun-loving or whatever, but they say you can’t type someone else, but it is very helpful when you know, someone else’s tight and how to adjust communication with that person.

And then how to do the deep work. Like you said, of really being at home with yourself and working on that shadow side. That really wants to see goodness. So many things I want to ask about. Let’s talk for a minute about a little bit about the reality, especially in this last year of juggling kids work, your work is all at home right now.

How do you guys do that? And to set boundaries? You, you mentioned a little bit about boundaries earlier, but can we. Dig

Seth: into that a little bit.

Oh yeah.

Yeah, sure. So primarily for the majority of our marriage, we’ve been married 16 years. I have worked outside of the home. So had acommute, gone to different job sites or whatever.

And Melanie has primarily been at home, taking care of the kids and stuff. And so with, with COVID of course I’m not gone as much in, in 2020. And of course now in 2021, plus I recently just quit my full-time job to do this full-time so. Wow.

Melanie: Yeah.

Wow. That’s huge.

Yeah.

Seth: It’s

Melanie: really awesome. So that was only last week.

Last Monday.

Seth: It’s not, it hasn’t been two weeks, two weeks. So we’ll see. I don’t know. You want to, you want to dive into that?

Okay.

Melanie: Yeah, a lot of, so it’s weird because COVID started and our kids immediately got taken out of school like last March or whatever. So it’s been, that was hard. Cause our, our kids are, we have, our kids are just like us, right?

So all the time everybody’s talking, everybody’s dancing. Everyone wants to make a fun, special meal. Like it never is quiet or calm in our house, which is a gift. But sometimes it does not feel like an amazing gift. And so we I’ve had to this last year has been a lot of me, a lesson or loosening my, what would the word be.

I’ve had to ease up on lots of stuff. Like the house can be messier. That’s fine. No, one’s going to die. Dinner can be something easy. That’s fine. No, one’s going to die. Like a lot of it has been my own personal work and how I walked through this season, but I will say one of the best things is having friends and family nearby where I will go like set to come home from work.

And I would go take a walk with my neighbor. She has kids the same age. We, she, and I go, we take a walk for an hour and a half. We’re only talking about whatever we want to talk about. Right. So there’s a lot of like, outside things that we’ve had to put into place, like taking walks or having like shopping days with just my mom and my sister so that I don’t lose my mind.

Cause it’s a lot to be with young kids constantly. Again, it’s a blessing, but it is kind of a lot, but

Seth: then especially during COVID.

Right. And I think that we, we got into a groove, I don’t know. It was, it’s almost like, of course we espouse intentionality and stuff, but I’m gonna go back on basically what we say.

And it’s it’s as if we kind of stumbled into this in some sort of innate knowing, like I know it’s the right thing to do when Melanie has been home with the kids all day or whatever, and she just says, Hey, I’m going on a walk with my best friend, be back in an hour and a half.

Yeah. Like he doesn’t ever get mad at me,

it’s not

yeah I’m not going to be weird about it that were super or, you know, like all that stuff and vice versa, like.

She knows that when hunting season comes around, I enjoy hunting or snowboarding outdoor stuff. And I can say, Hey, I would like to, how about this? One of the best things that we, one of the coolest interventions that we do and with each other, and then tell our clients is asking what our spouse is expecting usually.

Yeah. Every day, we wake up on a Saturday or whatever, say, Hey, what are your expectations for the day? Because every single time, we’re just not on the same page. Exactly. I need to be very clear of what her expectations are because not a hundred percent they’re going to be different from mine. Well, I thought I would go hang out with the guys for 12 hours.

Melanie: I don’t think so.

You could say something like, Oh, well Saturday is family day. What does that mean? What is your expectation of family day? What’s my expectation of that. They are not going to be the same thing. So that’s helped ease a lot of, a lot of stress in our marriage. It’s just asking what are your expectations for the next three hours?

So the next day or whatever there was something else I was going to say too, that I think has been helpful, but I

Seth: can’t really.

Yeah. Well, just those boundaries. I, I think I said it earlier, Melanie. Like her dad can just work nonstop 20 hours a day. Me when I’m ready to go to bed. I say, all right, everybody let’s go to bed.

I’m going to talk to the kid. She can go to bed when I want and asking and working and stuff. And I would say, listen, I’m not not doing this right. We can hit it tomorrow, you know, 7:00 AM or whatever. So having those boundaries around it, and she is really good because I have a million ideas. In fact, I think we had to reschedule a podcast early this morning because she was like, Seth, we’re doing three podcasts today.

And then we have three clients later on with all these other meetings. What are you doing? So she reins it back in because I can go, all right, I’ll do 10 podcasts today. I don’t care. I can do it right.

That our kids don’t need to eat or see their parents talk about those boundaries with one another.

Melanie: And the whole thing I was going to say that I forgot was that we also have a shared.

Sort of larger objective and goal as a family and a couple, like we want to have happy, healthy kids. We want to have a fun relationship with them when they become adults. So that actually hones in and removes. So it focuses in on what we know we should do. And it removes the stuff that we know we shouldn’t do.

So me needing to take a walk with my friend, if I’m kind of stressed out, he goes, that’s the best thing for our overall mission. No big deal. If he needs to go to bed at nine and I love to stay up late that’s okay. No big deal. Like we’ll, we’ll work it out because our biggest mission, our bigger goal drives us towards these sort of the positive outcomes that we want.

And that’s one of the things I wish that more people talked about was having this sort of larger objective or goal in your marriage because it helps eliminate things that don’t meet that objective and add in things that will get you there. That makes sense.

Kathy: That is so good. I wish we had more time, but I know you guys have other podcasts.

Yes. And clients, and one, yeah, last question, because I know you love this work. If you could share some, something that would maybe catch people upstream, you know, that story about people that rescue people that are falling over the waterfall. And it was like, well, what if we could stop them upstream? Do you have a thought or two about what you would like to share with other couples before they go over the Rapids

Melanie: with the waterfall?

Right? One of the things that comes to mind, what’s been on my mind a lot lately. Is this idea of how does your negative energy, your anger, your bitterness, your frustration, your sarcasm serve you. How does it serve you? How does it serve you in parenting? How does it serve you in your relationship? It only gets you more of what you bring.

Like it you’ve you bring this terrible negative energy, you, and again, this is almost me speaking to my younger self. I came in to our marriage just negative and sarcastic and really blaming Seth for everything. And I wish that someone had asked me like, how’s that working for you? How does it make your marriage better?

How does it stop a fight from happening? How does it stop your kid from hating you like it? Doesn’t newsflash. And so I wish that, that I had had that someone say that to me to catch me upstream and be like this isn’t serving you. And it never, ever will yelling at someone will never serve you. It will never make it better.

They’re never going to like you more, the more you nag and yell and scream and cry or whatever

Its that

Seth: Southern saying that, I’d say it used to say often you catch

Melanie: more flies with honey, right?

I used to get so mad at him for saying that

Seth: you get more of, you want, if you’re putting out what you want.

Melanie: Right. Right. Flies,

Seth: apparently

flies.

I would say a similar thing. I would speak to the guys in this way of, Hey man. Think of it this way, your wife doesn’t really owe you anything just because you got married, just because you’re so great. You’re the main breadwinner or whatever. This is a relationship and you need to go get your stuff, right.

And then lead and step up and lead that like lead with vulnerability and do the work yourself. Before you can have a good marriage and actually be in good relationship with your wife, right?

Melanie: Can I say one last weird thing? Spin on my head the whole time. So earlier we were talking, this image came to my mind. I don’t know why, but people think that marriage is a thing. Like it’s a thing. When I get married, something magical will happen. No, it won’t. A marriage is not a thing. A marriage is a relationship. Between two people, right? So a marriage is not like a sock or pants or a hat. It’s not a thing. And so the image that came to my mind was like, whatever you put in that.

So think of it like a soup. Marriage it’s like a soup. If you put crappy ingredients that are bitter in it, and rotten, you will have rotten bitter soup. But if you put ingredients that are fresh and wonderful and life-giving and healthy and organic, you’re going to have a great soup. Right? That’s the thing I think I wish people understood.

There is a marriage is not a thing. It’s what you create together. And however you show up whatever ingredients you bring is what you’re going to get back. Like if you’re total “b” all the time that you’re going to have the worst soup ever. Right. So bring better ingredients and get a better soup. It was suspended.

The whole time was just talking.

Kathy: I love that we’re going to eat better soup. Right? You guys have been wonderful guests and I’ll put all of the connections, anatomy of marriage, anatomy of family, anatomy of sex. You guys are brave. You go all out, talking about everything that everybody’s wondering about.

So thanks so much. It has been great meeting you and hope to see you again.

Yes. Thank you. It’s been a

Seth: pleasure.

Studleys edit

Kathy: Hi everyone. I am so happy to welcome Seth and Melanie steadily to the program. Hey guys,

Hello!

How’s it going today?

It is going well. It is going well. So tell us a little bit about what you guys do currently, where you live.

Seth: Yeah. Okay. Well, my name is Seth. I’m a licensed marriage and family therapist. We live outside of Seattle, Washington, and a little town called maple Valley.

We’ve been married 16 years and we have three kids and we do a couple of different podcasts

right

Melanie: in my name is Melanie Studley. I’m his wife and I do the editing audio engineer side of the show. Together, we do coaching. And then yeah, we have three podcasts, anatomy of marriage, anatomy of family and anatomy of sex.

So yeah, that’s all we do. That’s

Kathy: our whole world. Yeah.

Yeah. And, and raise three, adorable little kids. I’ve seen them on Instagram.

They are

Melanie: pretty adorable. It looks like we have twins. We do not have twins. We’ve got two red-headed boys that are 15 months apart. And then our daughter, they are 12 and 13 and then our daughter is almost nine.

So

Kathy: yeah, we love kiddos.

Oh, okay. You have teenagers. I didn’t

Melanie: realize that

Yeah its a weird.. middle schoolers. Like it’s a whole weird thing, but it’s exciting. Yeah.

Yeah.

Kathy: It’s, it’s a new phase for sure. Well, we want to get to know you a little bit and I have a couple of questions that help us get to know the fun side of the Studleys. If your marriage was a team sport, What would it be?

Seth: Oh, wow. That’s fun. Marriage was a team sport. It would be…

I feel like

Melanie: it would be football cause they’re just constantly getting knocked down and then we drop it. It

Seth: feels right to me.

Maybe it would be the pitcher catcher combination, right. Because the pitcher is always communicating with the catcher and vice versa. So they’re trying, you know, they have an objective kind of thing going on and sometimes they, you know, throw all strikes, which is great, or, you know, give up home runs and kind of blow it. So maybe, maybe that’s a really analogy.

Thats

Kathy: a really fun question, I love that

I’ve loved hearing couple’s answers to that very creative. And it gives you a little insight into, you know, how you view this thing called marriage. What are three words that you would use to describe your partner?

Seth: Exciting hardworking and loyal.

Melanie: Oh, those

are nice!

I Think fun would be the very first one dedicated.

And I wanna,

Kathy: I wanted to say perfect.

Oh boy, you guys have done a lot of work in therapy,

Seth: especially when you’re I have a podcast. We talk about this all the time and like throw it out there. So it’s like, every show we do is kind of a group therapy for thousands of people listened to right.

Kathy: Getting insight into your work. Right. Awesome. What book or person has most influenced the person you are

Melanie: today?

I would say the book is: change your thoughts, change your life. And the person is the author, wayne Dyer. I was transformed by Wayne Dyer’s work. I found it. I don’t know. It was probably five years ago, maybe. Are you familiar with his work at all?

Kathy: A little bit. Not, not

Melanie: intimately.

I mean, I ran into, there was a book or a movie that he made called the shift and you can watch it on YouTube, but he passed away I think a couple of years ago, but he’s just phenomenal.

And his whole thought process is essentially being in the present moment and yeah, I just love him. So he would be my person, my book person.

Seth: Yeah. I have a different answer to that question. And it’s like, sometimes my kids will say, Hey dad, what’s your favorite song? Or what’s your favorite food? Or what’s your favorite city or country?

And I’m like, I don’t have one single. Anything. I like a lot of things, so I don’t have one favorite book or one favorite person. It’s a whole host of books or favorite people. And I tend to go to the, the kind of hero story somebody who has overcome stuff and actually created things and are an inspiration unto themselves and build things and inspire a lot of other people I’m just thinking about like Tony Robbins or Wayne Dyer, or this guy named David Goggins, just there’s there’s, there’s so many of them and I just go back to them and intersperse them all the time.

I don’t know. That’s that’s the answer.

Kathy: And so more, a nonfiction sounds like, yeah.

Seth: Yeah. Okay.

I love the Hobbit and I love Lord of the rings and stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

You love

Melanie: classic hero’s journey stuff. Yeah. But also, yeah. Nonfiction stuff like that.

Kathy: Yeah, I love stories. Both fiction and nonfiction, as you said, of kind of people that face challenges and that hero’s journey, how do you overcome it?

The challenges they faced and, and I’m kind of looking for inspiration, I guess, for sure. Very good. What, what is something Melanie that you took away from that book when you said it’s so transformed you?

Melanie: I think what it was was this it’s a re the book is really big. It’s the change, your thoughts change your life.

And it’s like 81 verses of the Dao of Ching and like how the, how he was inspired to sort of it’s like really meditative, I guess that would probably be the thing that I took away was the meditative quality of how he writes. And he’s, it’s an audio book. I’m a total audio book nerd. I need to hear stuff.

And so it was almost like the first introduction that I had to really deep and slow thinking that was health based, like based on living a really, really healthy and fulfilling life versus just the, the sort of trying to get more like the rat race stuff. It was the first really kind of opposing worldview of that.

And so I would think the meditative side of it was what really was transformative for me. I just love it to pieces.

Kathy: Awesome. Well, I will include that in the show notes and put that on my book list. I’m always looking for good books to read. Alrighty. I want to shift and get a little bit of your story.

We know a little bit about what you’re doing now and, but we’re going to get the back story. Leading up to the passion that you guys have currently for really seeing healthy marriages. Tell us a little bit, so you said you’ve been married 16 years. How did you guys meet?

Seth: Oh, man. Okay. Well, so I’m from South Carolina originally and after I finished undergrad, my friends and I were in a band and we wanted to, after college do this more seriously.

So we all decided to go somewhere that’s really far away. So Seattle that’s about, as far as we could go, we were going to go to like Juneau, Alaska or something. Yeah. But Seattle, you know, it’s a music, a music city. There’s a half of the music scene. So we moved out here and got a record deal and toured and did all kinds of stuff.

And I met her of course at a Starbucks because she worked there and then I started working there at Starbucks part-time when we weren’t touring and on the road. So that’s where we met.

We worked

Melanie: together as friends for like a year. You know, I was dating somebody else and we were just friends and it was so fun because I got to really see when you work at a coffee shop that opens at four in the morning, you get to see a plethora of how people handle stress, how they handle being fatigued.

And so I got to really know him in this fun environment, but it was also like kind of stressful at times, and like a community environment as well. And then like the day I broke up with my boyfriend, we basically went out that day. And it was funny is that we went to this local park is lake wilderness is where we went.

And there was a log in the, like sticking out of the Lake. And we sat on this log and on our very first date, we said, You know, kind of interested in you and you’re interested in me and, but we don’t really want to like mess around. So if we’re going to date, let’s get married and if we’re not going to get married, let’s not date.

And that’s literally how we started. And then eight months later we were married.

Seth: We went like, yeah.

So fast forward, we’ve been married 16 years. We have three kids. And while I was in graduate school, we were also going to a church out here in Seattle at the time. And I was just feeling, there’s all kinds of stress.

I literally had three jobs and internship and full-time graduate

Melanie: school.

Well, and, and this was when we were very first married. So we had, I had a two week old baby and a 15 month old baby. So we had two kids, like four days apart, basically. And so this time it was really stressful because he was doing internships.

He was doing, I think at one point, I mean, he was going to school in Seattle, which is kind of far away from where we live. And so it was just all these stressors of young parent life. And then he confessed totally out of the blue that he had been lying and looking at pornography, but he confessed like, as I was holding our two week old baby and our one-year-old was sleeping in the crib and we were just in our living room and I was postpartum and I just lost my mind and like flew off the handle.

I threw the remote at him. Like every, it really revealed how much I did not know about myself and managing my emotions.

Seth: Yeah. And we know that that’s a really big deal in marriages for, for men, of course, and for women too. But it was just, I had lied to her and it wasn’t very truthful cause I was like, Oh, I don’t want to hurt your feelings or cause more stress.

But of course that just compounding and compounding and it got so bad at one point that you know, we were literally like trying to save our marriage. Melanie, I came home and we were just arguing. Cause that’s all we did basically. And she gave me a black guy. Right. And being, you know, a new marriage, a family therapist, basically a new dad.

We’re like, Oh my goodness, what is going on? Something has to change in me. Something has to change in you. And that really brought to a head where we had no other choice, but to look at this front and center and address it and say, okay, where’s our marriage going? What do we want, what are we responsible for?

And it wasn’t until that point where we like just kind of both switched and said, Oh, I’m responsible for my happiness, my attitude, my whatever. Right. She’s not going to do anything that is going to fill whatever kind of void maybe in me, and then vice versa because so many young couples that get married and say, Oh, everything will be fine when I get married or engaged or when you have a kid.

But that is absolutely not the answer. And I’ve been doing therapy for about 13 years now. And I see that with couples all the time. So it wasn’t until that point, when we like, Ooh, clicks kind of, and it wasn’t just overnight. Of course, that started our transition into just consuming all kinds of content, books, sermons, podcasts, going to counseling, doing masterminds all 24 seven doing the inner work.

And it wasn’t until we were right, I guess, individually to some degree. And then we both got right then our marriage

Melanie: started. Right.

And, and in that too we, I totally lost my train of thought. I was going to say something really great. I was going to say something amazing and it totally flew out the window.

Well, oops, nevermind. And there we are. Oh no, I know what I was going to say. In that time we were looking for resources. But we couldn’t find anything that looked like us. Right? So there was so many books that were very much like clean and tidy, like, Oh honor, and obey and love your spouse and tell them how much you care about them.

And I was like, look, I hate this guy. I hate him. I don’t want to divorce him. And so that was what really started us on the journey of making our show is we wanted to have the resources or to make the resources we wish we had had back then to help couples who are like us. Cause there’s a lot of couples like us.

So, yeah, that’s our journey.

Yeah.

Kathy: And when you say like us, describe what that is that you weren’t finding.

Melanie: There wasn’t a lot of really kind of gritty, like authentic was not super popular at the time. Everything was very like buttoned up very it’s either very clinical or very churchy, and those are fine things, but what I needed was the like, okay, What do you say to your husband when the first thing that comes to mind is I hate you every time they walk in the room, like, what’s the thing you say then?

And so it was that sort of raw kind of really calling a spade, a spade stuff that we were looking for. And you could even statically look at us like we have tattoos and our Seattle grungy people.

So

Seth: yeah, just something who we can identify with in a way, not, not just what the, I think market was saturated with maybe right at the time.

So yeah, one of the, I think you said it it’s we, we provide real help for real couples and we always create the content that we wish we had when we were going through the really hard stuff. Like when your wife punches you in the face or like when you’re, you know, up until 2:00 AM taking care of kids and fighting every single night for like a year and a half.

Yeah, miserable.

Kathy: And I just am so grateful that you guys have had the courage to come out with this authentic story. I followed you on Instagram for a while. I think sometime last year, about this time and using some hashtags and you all came up and I was like, Oh wow, cool. And because to your point, I think a lot of books are written from the point place where you’re at a really good place.

And it’s easy to say yes, sit down and come up with three things that you want to do on your date. But like you said, Melanie, like, I don’t even, I don’t even want to spend time with you right now, but something kept you fighting for your marriage. What was that?

Hmm,

Seth: that’s a good question. And it was, I think we talked about this on a show earlier.

It was the inner knowing. You know, I don’t know. I knew that we could make it through. Right. And there was a point where, you know, Melanie would just send me texts. Like if not daily, every other day or several times a week, I want a divorce.

I was really awful.

I want a divorce I’m divorcing you. And I would just simply write back, no, we’re not getting divorced and not in a domineering and kind of controlling way.

It’s like, you know, I know in my heart that, that is the answer. Things are the worst they’ve ever been right now, but it’s not, we’re not going there kind of thing. And so another thing just kind of clicked in me to where it’s like, Oh my goodness, I can’t believe we’re in this position. Well, the reality, okay.

I had to accept, we were there. I don’t know what to do, but we’re both Christian and grew up that way. All I know to do is pray. So I set prayer alarms. And I think we did that for like a year one when we woke up in the morning, nine o’clock, 12 o’clock 3:00 PM, 6:00 PM. And then at bedtime, right? Or on my phone, we

Melanie: literally did that six times a day for her.

Seth: I called her. I said, Hey, I’m going to pray. Sometimes I wouldn’t even know what to pray. Sometimes she wouldn’t even say anything and just then hang up on me. But I was like, that is all I know to do. And I can’t go wrong with that. It’s like, you, you know, maybe even if, if some listeners are not religious or whatever, it’s like, okay, saving money is not a bad idea.

You are not going to go wrong. You’re not going to be sorry that you saved money, like an emergency fund or whatnot. I was like, okay, that’s all I got. I’m going to lean into that with all I got. And yeah. After that it began to change things, right. It’s like what does that say? A prayer doesn’t change, God, prayer changes you.

Right. And it’s like, yeah. Okay. That changed who we were. Right.

Melanie: Yeah. And for me, there was a faith element where I was like, I really, and it wasn’t something that I was kind of getting from the outside. It was like this inner thing. Like, I don’t really want to divorce Seth, as much as I really hated his guts.

But then the other part of that was I knew even when I was super, super mad at him, I’m like, he’s an awesome dad. And he’s a great friend. And as much as I really like never want to look at him with my eyes ever again, I do think that if we can work this out, it will be better. And so it was like the tiniest teeniest ounce of hope that we could get through it.

That kept me going. And a lot of it did have to do with our kids, but I didn’t want them to be miserable. Like I didn’t want to save the marriage for the kids kind of vibe.

Seth: We weren’t in that kind of trouble.

Kathy: Hmm, but something kept you moving forward. And like you said, when you’re praying for someone it’s really hard to be mad at them.

Right. And for those that may not be spiritual or prayerful people, even just expressing gratitude or what you appreciate about that person is another way to stay focused. I think on. Right. The good things in that person. Right. That can get you through to that other side. But man, it, it sounds like it was a long, it was a long journey and it was what, what were some of the first, Oh, I think of springtime and the little buds that right out of the ground, it’s like, Oh, there’s something that’s growing here.

What, what were some of the first indicators that you had that I think we’re going to make it,

Melanie: I think for me One of the first real signs that I was growing was that I used to journal a lot during this time. And before I just journaled all the time. And I had at some point, this is only a few, maybe even a few weeks or months into that.

The hardest time I looked back in my journal at the days of what I had written on the days that we were going through everything and I was looking at, and I read it and as I was reading it, I could feel, I just felt it in my body, this like dread come back in. It was like I had reinvited this unwanted guest back into my spirit, through rereading what had gone on.

And so in that moment, I’m like, you know what? I don’t need to hold on to that. This is not where I’m, you know, this is not my destination, so why am I even holding on? I ripped those pages out and literally burned them in the bonfire. So I’m like, I don’t need that. And I will never grow if I have that.

Almost like cancer just stuck in my story. And so that, to me felt really freeing really like, no, I am letting go of that. And I’m choosing on purpose to not walk that journey anymore. And even, I just, it felt so visceral. Like my heart just sunk when I read that. And so that was kind of one of the bigger moments for me of like, Oh, there can be like, it was like a little tiny bud opening in the springtime and you go, Oh, it’s not going to be winter forever.

You know?

Seth: Yeah.

I think just more days of waking up and not feeling dread because of the night before we had maybe had a good conversation or okay. We hugged or, you know, a kiss or something like that, wasn’t just awkward. It was like normal, you know? So just like little glimpses of hope, like little spring buds, as you said, would come up and just give me hope and give me hope and actually be able to see.

Oh, things, things are changing.

Melanie: Okay.

I love that analogy of like buds. I love spring. It’s like my, one of my absolute favorite seasons. And what’s funny is that I’m realizing now in spring, I look for buds actively. I look for them when we say we talked about it. Like even the blackberries have little tiny buds on them.

And so it is almost that sort of like reminds me of that, of when you’re trying to make transformation in your life, look for the buds. It’s not going to be big changes. You’re not going to see an Apple tomorrow, but there’ll be a tiny bud, you know,

Kathy: and it’ll get bigger every day, if it has the right conditions, right.

If it doesn’t get any rain or not enough sun, it could die or you could yank it out and you know, really kill it. Right. That’s really good. And I think in that process too there had, to be a trust factor of. Both of you regaining trust. And I heard someone say one time that trust is consistent behavior in the same direction.

And so again, that idea of, okay, here’s a little bit, I heard you say Seth, you know, there’s a little bit of anxiety or anticipation about how’s today going to go. And so if today goes, well, then we can add that and we can add that. And gradually it becomes at some point to the place where it’s hard to remember, gosh, what was that place where I couldn’t trust you or where I didn’t trust myself with my emotions or whatever the case may be.

Seth: Yeah, it’s, it’s cumulative. And basically just adding up and adding up, it’s like walking over or driving over a bridge. There’s a lot of bridges in downtown Seattle and I’ve gone over this bridge. Didn’t crack. I didn’t fall in the water. Okay. Let me try it again and try it again. And Oh, okay. This is solid now.

Right?

But also trust takes a really long time to build. It can be broken in an instant. Right. And that’s what happened with us. And, but through consistent actions over and over and over, it’s just like, and it takes a long time. It’s like you don’t build an overpass bridge in two days either. It usually takes at least a year.

So keeping that in mind, if couples are working on rebuilding trust or continuing to maintain that trust, it takes work.

Right. And

Melanie: I think there’s sort of two ideas with trust that pop into my head. Cause one was, he was doing that daily prayer thing. Right? He has set prayer alarms. He did it on his own.

I didn’t ask him. He did it when I was mean to him. He did it if I was nice to him, which was basically never, he did it no matter what, no matter where we were, if he was in a meeting, he would step out and call me if I was grocery shopping, it didn’t matter. So he built trust, on his own without being asked all of that stuff.

And that was deeply important to me as a person whose trust had been broken. And then. Sort of a second thing that comes to mind when I think about trust and rebuilding it is that like when you build a bridge, you don’t just build the bridge. The bridge is being held up by supports like a ton of extra stuff.

Is there during the building process that we often don’t realize is there. We just say, Oh, they’re building a bridge. Like they’re putting the bridge sticks together, but they’re really not there. There’s like the bridge, they’re scaffolding, there’s things, holding it up all the time, the whole way through. And when we are rebuilding trust in a wounded or injured relationship, We often need lots of extra support.

So whether that’s prayer, a community, your family, a good friend who supports and loves your marriage and looks for the best in your spouse, even though they’ve done something bad or whatever, that support is always there when you’re trying to rebuild a bridge. And so I think that’s a really important factor that I just don’t hear people talking about that much, that what, who we surround ourselves with in the rebuilding process is hugely important.

Kathy: So true. I could not agree more. And you know, I, I was a marriage and family therapist for many years, and now I do coaching and some writing, but I saw a lot of couples in that time. And it was always heartbreaking when you would see couples that maybe hit that point and they’re like, that’s it. I’m outta here.

I’m done. But they don’t do that inner work, as you said, that was part of the important thing that both of you did was to do that inner work. I remember I had a couple, it was a really long time ago. So I think we’re way beyond the bounds of competence, no names here, but this couple came and he had some issues with alcohol and he wasn’t really willing to face it and they ended up divorcing and then I saw him alone.

And I remember so clearly saying to him, you need to not date anyone for like, at least a year. You need to work on yourself. And, you know, because a marriage is always two people, whether it’s good or whether it’s falling apart, both people contribute. And I said, you need to figure out what your part was in it.

Well, I might as well been talking to a brick wall because about, I. I don’t remember the timeframe now. It was less than a year. Yeah. Remarried sitting, sitting on my couch with a new wife. Oh man. Could have hit a button on the tape recorder with her concerns. And I was just like, I don’t know, you know?

Right. So it’s, it’s so powerful and great that you guys share that the hard parts of your story, because that’s part of what led me to launch this podcast is we talk about entrepreneurs a lot and hold them up as gurus kind of, you know, Steve jobs, wonderful guy, but man, his relationships suffered. Right.

And I’m just a real believer that we can change this narrative that you have to give up everything to have a successful business. So tell us a little bit about the business that you guys now have evolved, like how did this business begin and what does it look like along

Melanie: the way?

Well, again, it, it just developed out of our, it started with creating the show and the show is essentially just a resource for couples.

And we have such a heart for wanting to help people, like how can we talk about everything that Seth learned in graduate school in a way that everybody can understand that everybody can apply. So our whole mission has been helpful tools, helpful resources, realistic concepts, realistic, and practical tips and all that stuff.

And then slowly that morphed into people started sending us questions on our show. So we started answering their questions and it slowly that turned into, do you do therapy? Like, can you see whatever? So then that turned into coaching, which we love. Coaching is like our zone of genius for sure. And we coached together.

So we, we see clients together and I mean, I’ll just show it. I’ll share like my big gigantic picture dream. I don’t know if you know who Joyce Meyer is. She’s a preacher lady. Some people hate her. She’s a preacher lady, but I adore her and I want to be the Joyce Meyer of marriage where like you and I just do have a budget and resources.

Like most of them are free. And then we do some things where people come and do events with us or go out and do retreats and stuff. Cause this is something we’re just so deeply

Seth: passionate about.

Yeah. I think about the entrepreneurial side, we were talking about this a couple of months ago and sometimes folks are entrepreneurs because like, Oh, that’s the thing to do or that’s the label you want?

And then I own my own business, but well, okay. What is that? Well, I don’t know. I never work on it, basically nothing, but I have an LLC, so that counts, but I was just, we were talking about this and there’s, there’s been an entrepreneurial spirit in me for about as long as I can remember, I had my first job when I was 14 pumping gas at a gas station, running the store, and then like little things.

Well, yeah, it’s, it’s not legal now, you know, in the South, whatever. And me and my friends started a window washing business. We started a landscaping business. I had my own furniture building business that I would get old barn furniture and make and deliver to people. And then being in a band when we’re taking it seriously, it’s a very much startup business.

That was our main source of income. Right. And then, so I’ve always had that, that I guess that, that drive to- wait a minute, this really interests me. I don’t see it anywhere. Let me speak to it and see what I can create. Right. And I’ve been doing that as program developer and clinical supervisor in my former job.

So it’s always that. And then this is just more flight. Okay, we, here we go. And I, I, part of me, I think, I don’t know, I’m not tooting my own horn or anything, but just like contract language and starting LLCs and doing this. And it’s just, that comes easy to me where it, I don’t think it does to you, but then as a business partner, because basically we’re literally business partners and life partners you, you do, and you speak to my non-skilled, right?

Well,

Melanie: I do like content creation side, so that’s all of my brain space goes to that.

Seth: Been really, really fun because we are very hard workers and it’s almost like this feels like the water we swim in and like just a fish doesn’t know. Oh, well, wait a minute. Of course I can breathe under water. I’ve never even thought about it before.

This is just kind of. Not, it’s not kind of, it is what we do. And it’s just what we do. Sure. Let’s talk about it. Let’s let’s build, let’s visualize and let’s go make it happen, right?

Kathy: Yeah. Did either of you have entrepreneur mentors, like, did you have a parent or a close family friend that had their own business, or you said

Melanie: I can do that.

My dad is not quite, he’s not an entrepreneur necessarily, but he started a bunch of things. So my dad is native , we’re, native American on my side. I don’t look native American at all, but we are, my grandma was raised on a reservation. My dad is super dark and they, he was basically really poor when he was a kid.

And now he’s the head of a giant corporate he’s a CEO of a company has thousands of employees and he does really great work. He, he works in helping fields. So he has, they run soup kitchens, they house the most homeless people in Seattle. So my father was really inspirational in the sense of like, you can do anything, like if you do good work, money will come.

So he was really motivational and very inspiring and still is with me just following the dream of whatever work I wanted to pursue. And I think he was very happy that it ended up being like helping work.

Seth: Yeah. That’s a great question. And my dad also was in business for himself, but it was always just one small business. He never had employees or anything. He was just as the sole proprietor of, of what he did. And I, I don’t know. It’s just, I, I see something and if I have the right amount of jazz about it it gets in my brain and it goes, all right, we, we are off to the races and sometimes that’s not so helpful to a marriage.

ADD helps.

Kathy: Yeah. With add though, it’s hard sometimes to get that focus or when you do focus, it becomes so narrow that you lose.

Melanie: Yeah, we have lots of like operating procedures to weed out the add vibes. Cause sometimes it’s like, okay honey, we can’t chase everything that sparkles. And then it works in our favor.

Kathy: Yeah. Yeah. And you said something earlier, Seth, about all these different interests. And are you guys familiar with Marie Forleo?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Well she talks a lot about multi. How did she term it? Multi

Melanie: interests. Multi-discipline yeah. It’s like

Kathy: multi interests, like people that have lots of different interests because that’s kind of her story.

She chased this and then that she really thought there was something wrong with her. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs also, if they don’t have someone that can validate that approach, they kind of think something’s wrong with them too. That was my husband’s story. He was like, until he was 40 something, he thought there’s something wrong with me.

I just can’t seem to hold a job and work eight to five, like other people I’m always thinking of something better, new ideas. Right. And we didn’t have that word entrepreneur.

Melanie: Right?

Seth: Yeah. Yeah. It’s weird. It’s a, it’s a balance I, as, as I’m hearing you talking, I, I had started a private practice and did that for three years and had a whole clientele and the office and all that stuff while I was doing other clinical agency work 40 hours.

So I was just like working all the time. But yeah, that’s, I have felt kind of, Oh man, what’s wrong with me, Seth? Why can’t you just focus on one thing? What’s the deal. That’s why I had a hard time answering, you know, what’s your favorite book or most inspirational person. I’m like, I don’t have one. Yeah.

Melanie: There’s a point that the life library of books, we own all

Seth: the things

you could throw a dart and say, yep. That’s why I love that one kind of thing.

Yeah.

Kathy: I totally relate. I do. What in this journey has been a high and a low of working together.

Melanie: I think the highs, what I love and things that stand out to me, I was, when did we get to go to events and have events or co-host events and things like that, that is so exciting to get to travel and see people in real life.

Like we do a lot of stuff virtually. So we do our podcasts. We’re just in our, yeah. Yeah. But when it’s in our studio, we’re just in our house or whatever. But when we get to actually. See people and hug them and cry with them and root them on there is nothing better than that. And I get to turn and see this guy talking to someone else over there and hugging that person who’s crying.

I mean, there’s, there’s just no better feeling in my

Seth: opinion.

Yeah. I, I would exactly sum it up as the highest, like when we were on stage speaking together and it’s not like it’s all about us, it’s just, we’re in the zone of genius and you know, you can yeah. Like different athletes. They talk about a flow state where they’re just.

They’re not even thinking they’re just reacting and it’s, it’s perfect. You know, like a race car driver or a basketball player or a cellist on stage or anything like that. That’s the way that I feel when we’re on stage, like I can be talking about something and then just look at her and she, you know, gives whatever.

And then we just go back and forth. Now, some of the low huh?

Lots of lows.

Well, there are, and that’s just the ups and downs. So any, any entrepreneur, any, any startup, first of all, But then any entrepreneur individually, and then if you have a husband and wife team. Yeah. Is that a word? A couple preneur . We have to manage the business and all that comes along with that.

And then, Oh, wait a minute. How are we doing? Right. Are we connecting date nights? You know, intimacy, all that stuff. And then of course kids. So I think one of the things where I have maybe something, I think it’s a great idea. Like a direction we should go for an Instagram live or a podcast or whatever.

She’s like, hold the phone, hold on. No, that’s no good. Or that’s not our focus or that’s not our mission, which I always think it is, but we have to have conversations around that and just those real practical things. So it’s like going into business mode. One thing I don’t like either, and this is funny is like in the morning when the first thing she hits me with is like, Hey, we need to talk about our client couple and what, what’s the plan for them

to

Melanie: not having

Seth: this?

We’re not bringing that in right now or like, you know, there’s a quitting time at night and really, really being intentional around that. That’s a constant kind of thing, but we do really good

Melanie: at.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think for me, it’s like, until I realized that our lows quote unquote lows were actually points of like, we could learn from each one of them before I understood that there was a lot more lows.

I would be mad at him for having an idea for Instagram live. Like, I’d be like, Oh, why does he think that’s a good idea? What an idiot. Like, I don’t know why I was so moody about it, but then I realized I’m like, wait, I can learn. Why does he want to do that? What is that? Like? What does that touch in him that is inspiring?

Maybe I can learn from this. And so in a way, our lows, when we have the right mindset can become learning moments and moments to understand ourselves and our spouse more deeply, which is great. But before then I was just kind of mad a lot.

Seth: Yeah.

Oftentimes I get, I like Gary Vaynerchuk a lot, you know, daily experience and he’s an entrepreneur and several other entrepreneur podcasts that I get.

And some of that things, because she hasn’t maybe not into Gary V so much, but he’s just like, espousing, you gotta do this. You know, attention is everything. Where are people going? You know? And I’m like, Hey, it might be smart if we get into this platform. And sometimes we have conversations. We can’t add another thing.

We’re doing Instagram live and Facebook and all that. And YouTube live and all the platforms are Tik TOK or clubhouse or whatever’s going on. And it gets too much. So sometimes I feel like, Oh, we’re leaving an opportunity on the table, but then she helps to kind of slow down. And then of course, if I think it’s a good idea, still we’ll have a conversation about it and lean into it.

Hm.

Kathy: And it’s a little challenging, I would think when you work together as a couple, doing couples work about communication and surely you have days when you still periodically go, Oh, I’m really mad at you. Or I don’t like you very much today. How do you handle those times when you’ve got to put on the happy face?

Melanie: We’ve worked really hard on that, because that was something we’ve never wanted to be fake. So there have been times when this is I don’t know, maybe a year ago or something like that, where we had had like arguments and we said, we’re not doing the podcast today. Like that is not fair to our listeners.

That’s not right. We shouldn’t do that. And so we’ve worked really hard on mending things earlier, but even now, I don’t think we get mad at each other the way we used

Seth: to,

even on the opposite of that. Cause we’ve done a couple of times of 100 days of a of m, like 100 days straight, like no fail. I don’t care if somebody’s sick or mad we’re doing it.

Cause that’s what, you know, kind the, the, the plan was right. And so we would hash stuff out, live, live with our listeners. And you know, I remember when we, when was it probably, maybe in 2019, we were, I was just, I was kind of. Pissed at something, honestly, but we were on live and we were working it out and there were viewers saying, Hey, Seth, you got this for

Melanie: giving us that in real time.

Yeah.

Seth: Which was amazing. Cool. And it was, it was neat because we got to model that. Right. And of course, like, I love Brenae Brown. She’s a big influence as well. You know, leading with vulnerability and vulnerability gives other people unspoken will not unspoken, but clear premonition permission to bring their own stuff.

And like, if we can pave the way, then I’m really comfortable with that. And I’m like, okay, fine. Let’s let’s, let’s talk about it. Yeah.

And I

Melanie: think that goes back to that point of, if we can’t fix it, we can, we can work on it on the show because there is nothing more important to relationships than having a model of healthy conflict resolution.

That’s real. So it’s one thing to see John Gottman at a conference. Pretending to resolve an argument and it’s a whole other thing to see Seth. And I actually do it in real time. And not that John Gottman is obviously he’s great and his work is amazing, but he would be doing like a pretend thing and we’re, and we have real emotions and we’re actually mad.

So so that’s, you know, it’s part of our whole thing. But yeah, it takes a lot of self-awareness I guess,

and

Kathy: encourage courage to be that vulnerable. On a live show. And how do you know where the boundary is? Is there a point where it’s too much?

Melanie: How do you know we’re being vulnerable? You mean

we we havent really talked about it, but we both have kind of a sense of where we are comfortable and then having to take into consideration.

We have children, we have family who watched the show, so we’ve never really talked about it, but we both kind of have a sense of like what things are okay to share and not share. And of course we don’t share other people’s story ever. Like if something happened in my family, I don’t say, Oh yeah, well, my mom did this and my dad did that.

Like that’s not ever,

Seth: yeah.

We’re not, of course like airing family laundry or whatever like that. But I do, we both feel strongly that it is, I feel like not, not a leader. I mean, we’re leaders in, in certain things, of course, but kind of right on the forefront of. Hey, it is okay to share at this level because people like Brenee Brown, I’ve done it.

And you know, they’re, they’re not dead. or hiding in a hole somewhere or whatever. So if they can do it, then I know that I can do it. What kind of work can I do on myself to be able to get up to that level? And like we’re running a business too. So I think if, you know, if we’ve gone on a show before. And we have some, you know, things that we’re going through, we always are able to show up professionally.

Right. Okay. There’s still a job to do. And I, I think that we, I don’t think, I believe that we do a really good job in that way, and we’re still able to be authentic and

Melanie: well,

and I think too, our sharing is missional.

There’s a purpose behind it. We’re not sharing for the sake of like you know, like this is clickbait or whatever we’re sharing, because we want people to understand how you walk through this conflict or how you create resolution here or there, whatever.

So that’s always like a, a kind of a thing we can ask ourselves, why are we sharing this? Are we sharing it for a reason to resharing it? Because. We want to be gossipy. No. So then let’s not share it. So that’s helpful, a helpful way to, for us to frame it.

Kathy: So yeah, there was a live that you guys did. I saw it on Instagram.

I know you always do it on Facebook also. Right? It’s like my brain can handle that, but Seth, you were very vulnerable sharing about a big disappointment. You guys had a meeting that didn’t go the way you wanted, and you can share that story, but it was a very tender moment, Melanie, where you just stopped and turned to him and rubbed his back.

You connected with him. And I think that’s an example of just how you, you modeled. Look, I’m not going to gloss over it. You’re really hurting right now. And I want to be there for you. Right now it was, it was a beautiful picture, but that was a big disappointment. Can you guys talk about that story a little

Seth: bit?

Yeah. Thank you. First of all, for, for reminding me of, of that like moment, you know, I, now I’m clearly remembering like, Oh, what I shared and like the incident where I kind of got choked up and I think he started crying or whatever, because I, it was like, I actually real-time process that. Right. And a part of me didn’t know that it affected me that much, you know?

And so for her to, I mean, thank you for that reminder because like, Oh, that’s sweet. Thank you. Right. So we were talking to. Dave Ramsey folks. Right. And he had reached out to us. They had reached out to us and invited us to Nashville and we’d been back and forth out there a couple of times. And we were kind of on board, of course, nothing was nothing was a hundred percent of course, but we were getting fairly close, like, okay, would you guys move out here?

Are you willing to live here in Nashville?

Melanie: Cause you like be the faces of a marriage rather than the

Seth: Ramsey personalities, right.

Is what they call them. And so that was just all I could think about for for a good, I think we flew out there in October of 20. I don’t remember what it is, but it was like, you know, half a year, eight months of just thinking I was going back and forth, trying to see if this would be a good fit and ended up not being a good fit obviously.

And but I, I just thought it, I was like praying about it and like seeing myself do this and visualizing a lot of stuff. So I spent a lot, probably too much of emotional energy just on that. Right. It wasn’t like an OCD kind of obsessive thing, but it was, if we’re going to move across country with our three kids and all this stuff, this is clearly a very big deal and will impact not only us, but our kids and all of our families and relationships.

Right. So there’s a lot of emotional energy around that. And long story short, it ended up, okay. You know, you guys just, I don’t, I don’t think we’re going to be a good fit. And this was like a week before we were

Melanie: slated to go out there

Seth: again, slated to go out there again and speak to the entire thousand person company at one of

Melanie: their events.

Right. Like things arranged babysit, like everything,

Seth: everything, tickets, car, everything. Right.

So. Hey guys, I don’t think this is going to work out. And I remember being on the phone call with them and just, you know, hanging up and of course, caveat, major caveat. If something isn’t meant to be, that doesn’t mean that you know, there’s a huge falling out, or people got mad or somebody did something.

So nothing like that, we, we literally well after the fact, because I was like, Oh, what’s the, what’s the deal. But after the fact, I was like, you know what? I don’t think it would have been a good fit. And they had just seen that sooner than us, I guess. So of course we were disappointed. And so I was in my car and I was just like, almost speechless.

I’d put my head on the steering wheel. And I think I cried. I know maybe not. I was just kind of in shock. Right. And then I called Melanie and, you know, it’s just like, you know, felt like I got punched in the stomach, but I’m processing that. Was a lot, but I said the whole story. What was your view on it?

Melanie: Well, I will sort of go backwards a little bit and it was so exciting.

That was kind of one of the high parts of, I would say, doing this work, we got to go out to Nashville. We got to go to a Ramsey influencer event. Like there is nothing more cool than that. We did a financial peace university when we very first got married. So Dave Ramsey is like someone we esteem so much.

You were

Seth: hanging out with Dave Ramsey,

Melanie: balconies smoking a cigar he’s standing right there. Like it was the weirdest thing. It’s just so trippy. Right.

But it was weird, but also really amazing. And so there was a part of that that was like, How is this? How are we here? Like I always remember saying, have they heard our show?

Like, did they just, why did they pick us? Why are we here? And so part of that experience was really, really amazing. And I would not change it for the world, no matter the outcome. And then when it, and from my perspective, I was fine with whatever the outcome was. I didn’t want to move. I didn’t want to leave my family.

We all live right in the same area. Our kids love their school. So I was not like, yes, it’s the best thing ever week. It’ll be the life changing whatever of the world. But Seth was like, kind of like that Seth was very much like, this is the thing we have to do. And I bet it will work. I know it will work and I feel it will work.

So from a wife’s perspective, it was really a weird to manage. Cause I’m like, I was the whole time trying to tell him, like, it might not work. It’s cool. If it doesn’t work, let’s just like slow our minds down. But that’s just kind of not how it is. So when it didn’t end up working, that was why you saw that moment on the Instagram live, where it was like.

It’s okay. Like, I’m not going to say, I told you. So that would be the worst thing ever in a million years to do. And, and I wasn’t trying, I wasn’t like putting on a show for our listeners. Obviously it was a genuine moment of like, we haven’t processed this and we’re going to do it right now and we’re going to share, and we’re going to be authentic.

Cause disappointments happen in life. Whether that’s personal disappointments, work, disappointments, health, disappointments, financial disappoints, doesn’t matter. People go through these things and if they don’t have a model or see how couples work through it, they don’t know how. And a lot of times people say, well, see, I told you I knew it was going to work.

Why were you so, blah, you know, so having that opportunity to share that moment with our audience was really important for me. And I had to make the clip. I had to make that clear both of us crying. And I was like, ah, that was cathartic. Like it was like, I got to watch it over and over again. But yeah, but it was a big, it was a big thing for us because family lives in the South.

So it was like tied into lots of

Seth: other things. Yeah.

When I say emotional energy, I mean, a lot of rain was going to that, but it worked out how it was supposed to. Right. We’re

Kathy: great.

Yeah. I’m curious what came up out of all of the excitement and anticipation more. So it sounds like for you, Seth, that you were able to maybe look at, okay, well, we can still get pieces of this.

Was there something that came out of that that was positive going

Seth: forward?

I I think for me just being completely immersed in behind the scenes stuff of like all the work that Ramsey does and their just the team work ethic and, and like how everything was professional top-notch that was a new experience for me to, to it, it set a bar for me to some degree, like, and for Melanie too, because we were like, okay, This is the standard that we want to do stuff at, like, okay.

Super hospitable, super like real let’s add value where we can give value and also receive whatever value because you know, everything is reciprocal. But that was one of the main pieces. I think,

I

Melanie: think, well, one of the best things that I took personally was just, they believed in us, they actually called us and that to have people who are doing that amazing of work in the world, helping millions of people saying, I actually believe in what you’re doing.

I see you. And I, and I validate what you’re doing. That was basically all I needed. Like to be like, Oh, it’s right. Like I’m doing good. Yes, I’ll do more. So that, that to me was a huge takeaway that even not, you know, nothing can take that element away from what I took away from it, if

Kathy: that makes sense. Yeah.

So great. Thanks for sharing that. What are some ways that you guys balance each other, in terms of personality, are you more alike or are you different in your

Melanie: personalities?

Really similar qualities. We love experiencing things. So we love, like, let’s just try it. Like, that’s kind of an energy we both really have.

But I think there’s even big cultural differences. Like he’s from the South, he’s kind of like a Southern farming, like you hunt and you do all the things and you catfish or whatever, and that’s not me. So there’s lots of like cultural things that are different. But we do, we have struck a good balance of he helps draw out.

My positive side, I have a tendency to be negative. My family of origin is pretty negative and sarcastic. He helps balance my negative side and bring positivity and I help kind of slow I’ve I’ve often used the example of he’s like a bullet train and family’s like trying to hang on the end. Sometimes I say, okay, I like hit the brakes a little bit, brother.

I need still go fast, but like just slow down. We can’t hold on. And I think we’ve found a good way of communicating when we see the imbalance in one another, without it being shaming or hurtful, if that makes sense. What are your thoughts?

Seth: Yeah, I think very similar things. One thing that came up we, the, the Enneagram is something that has been helpful for me.

Not only personally, but in, in therapy and, you know, for coaching and stuff like that. And we talk about it a fair amount on the show. So I’m a nine and she’s a seven. And. They I think both of those numbers have certain characteristics that support one another, but then also can get kind of goofy at times.

Well, I’m a

Melanie: super. . Are you familiar with Enneagram? Do you do? I’m like a super strong eight wing, so seven, seven with a wing. And so when he doesn’t tell me his opinion, I’ll be glad to tell him mine and like bulldoze him with all my thoughts. So the Enneagram though has been really helpful in helping us understand how to navigate that.

And so I do less bulldozing because man, I had a tendency to do that.

Seth: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. The, the things that we’ve learned about ourselves through the Enneagram work the more I learn about myself and that helps me to articulate to you what I need, what I don’t need. Hey, let me give you an insight on this or you or, or vice versa

Melanie: kind of thing.

I feel like learning about his number was the most helpful thing for me.

Kathy: True. I love the Enneagram for how deep it can go into doing your own work. I know a lot of people try to figure out, Oh, you must be a seven year old fun fun-loving or whatever, but they say you can’t type someone else, but it is very helpful when you know, someone else’s tight and how to adjust communication with that person.

And then how to do the deep work. Like you said, of really being at home with yourself and working on that shadow side. That really wants to see goodness. So many things I want to ask about. Let’s talk for a minute about a little bit about the reality, especially in this last year of juggling kids work, your work is all at home right now.

How do you guys do that? And to set boundaries? You, you mentioned a little bit about boundaries earlier, but can we. Dig

Seth: into that a little bit.

Oh yeah.

Yeah, sure. So primarily for the majority of our marriage, we’ve been married 16 years. I have worked outside of the home. So had acommute, gone to different job sites or whatever.

And Melanie has primarily been at home, taking care of the kids and stuff. And so with, with COVID of course I’m not gone as much in, in 2020. And of course now in 2021, plus I recently just quit my full-time job to do this full-time so. Wow.

Melanie: Yeah.

Wow. That’s huge.

Yeah.

Seth: It’s

Melanie: really awesome. So that was only last week.

Last Monday.

Seth: It’s not, it hasn’t been two weeks, two weeks. So we’ll see. I don’t know. You want to, you want to dive into that?

Okay.

Melanie: Yeah, a lot of, so it’s weird because COVID started and our kids immediately got taken out of school like last March or whatever. So it’s been, that was hard. Cause our, our kids are, we have, our kids are just like us, right?

So all the time everybody’s talking, everybody’s dancing. Everyone wants to make a fun, special meal. Like it never is quiet or calm in our house, which is a gift. But sometimes it does not feel like an amazing gift. And so we I’ve had to this last year has been a lot of me, a lesson or loosening my, what would the word be.

I’ve had to ease up on lots of stuff. Like the house can be messier. That’s fine. No, one’s going to die. Dinner can be something easy. That’s fine. No, one’s going to die. Like a lot of it has been my own personal work and how I walked through this season, but I will say one of the best things is having friends and family nearby where I will go like set to come home from work.

And I would go take a walk with my neighbor. She has kids the same age. We, she, and I go, we take a walk for an hour and a half. We’re only talking about whatever we want to talk about. Right. So there’s a lot of like, outside things that we’ve had to put into place, like taking walks or having like shopping days with just my mom and my sister so that I don’t lose my mind.

Cause it’s a lot to be with young kids constantly. Again, it’s a blessing, but it is kind of a lot, but

Seth: then especially during COVID.

Right. And I think that we, we got into a groove, I don’t know. It was, it’s almost like, of course we espouse intentionality and stuff, but I’m gonna go back on basically what we say.

And it’s it’s as if we kind of stumbled into this in some sort of innate knowing, like I know it’s the right thing to do when Melanie has been home with the kids all day or whatever, and she just says, Hey, I’m going on a walk with my best friend, be back in an hour and a half.

Yeah. Like he doesn’t ever get mad at me,

it’s not

yeah I’m not going to be weird about it that were super or, you know, like all that stuff and vice versa, like.

She knows that when hunting season comes around, I enjoy hunting or snowboarding outdoor stuff. And I can say, Hey, I would like to, how about this? One of the best things that we, one of the coolest interventions that we do and with each other, and then tell our clients is asking what our spouse is expecting usually.

Yeah. Every day, we wake up on a Saturday or whatever, say, Hey, what are your expectations for the day? Because every single time, we’re just not on the same page. Exactly. I need to be very clear of what her expectations are because not a hundred percent they’re going to be different from mine. Well, I thought I would go hang out with the guys for 12 hours.

Melanie: I don’t think so.

You could say something like, Oh, well Saturday is family day. What does that mean? What is your expectation of family day? What’s my expectation of that. They are not going to be the same thing. So that’s helped ease a lot of, a lot of stress in our marriage. It’s just asking what are your expectations for the next three hours?

So the next day or whatever there was something else I was going to say too, that I think has been helpful, but I

Seth: can’t really.

Yeah. Well, just those boundaries. I, I think I said it earlier, Melanie. Like her dad can just work nonstop 20 hours a day. Me when I’m ready to go to bed. I say, all right, everybody let’s go to bed.

I’m going to talk to the kid. She can go to bed when I want and asking and working and stuff. And I would say, listen, I’m not not doing this right. We can hit it tomorrow, you know, 7:00 AM or whatever. So having those boundaries around it, and she is really good because I have a million ideas. In fact, I think we had to reschedule a podcast early this morning because she was like, Seth, we’re doing three podcasts today.

And then we have three clients later on with all these other meetings. What are you doing? So she reins it back in because I can go, all right, I’ll do 10 podcasts today. I don’t care. I can do it right.

That our kids don’t need to eat or see their parents talk about those boundaries with one another.

Melanie: And the whole thing I was going to say that I forgot was that we also have a shared.

Sort of larger objective and goal as a family and a couple, like we want to have happy, healthy kids. We want to have a fun relationship with them when they become adults. So that actually hones in and removes. So it focuses in on what we know we should do. And it removes the stuff that we know we shouldn’t do.

So me needing to take a walk with my friend, if I’m kind of stressed out, he goes, that’s the best thing for our overall mission. No big deal. If he needs to go to bed at nine and I love to stay up late that’s okay. No big deal. Like we’ll, we’ll work it out because our biggest mission, our bigger goal drives us towards these sort of the positive outcomes that we want.

And that’s one of the things I wish that more people talked about was having this sort of larger objective or goal in your marriage because it helps eliminate things that don’t meet that objective and add in things that will get you there. That makes sense.

Kathy: That is so good. I wish we had more time, but I know you guys have other podcasts.

Yes. And clients, and one, yeah, last question, because I know you love this work. If you could share some, something that would maybe catch people upstream, you know, that story about people that rescue people that are falling over the waterfall. And it was like, well, what if we could stop them upstream? Do you have a thought or two about what you would like to share with other couples before they go over the Rapids

Melanie: with the waterfall?

Right? One of the things that comes to mind, what’s been on my mind a lot lately. Is this idea of how does your negative energy, your anger, your bitterness, your frustration, your sarcasm serve you. How does it serve you? How does it serve you in parenting? How does it serve you in your relationship? It only gets you more of what you bring.

Like it you’ve you bring this terrible negative energy, you, and again, this is almost me speaking to my younger self. I came in to our marriage just negative and sarcastic and really blaming Seth for everything. And I wish that someone had asked me like, how’s that working for you? How does it make your marriage better?

How does it stop a fight from happening? How does it stop your kid from hating you like it? Doesn’t newsflash. And so I wish that, that I had had that someone say that to me to catch me upstream and be like this isn’t serving you. And it never, ever will yelling at someone will never serve you. It will never make it better.

They’re never going to like you more, the more you nag and yell and scream and cry or whatever

Its that

Seth: Southern saying that, I’d say it used to say often you catch

Melanie: more flies with honey, right?

I used to get so mad at him for saying that

Seth: you get more of, you want, if you’re putting out what you want.

Melanie: Right. Right. Flies,

Seth: apparently

flies.

I would say a similar thing. I would speak to the guys in this way of, Hey man. Think of it this way, your wife doesn’t really owe you anything just because you got married, just because you’re so great. You’re the main breadwinner or whatever. This is a relationship and you need to go get your stuff, right.

And then lead and step up and lead that like lead with vulnerability and do the work yourself. Before you can have a good marriage and actually be in good relationship with your wife, right?

Melanie: Can I say one last weird thing? Spin on my head the whole time. So earlier we were talking, this image came to my mind. I don’t know why, but people think that marriage is a thing. Like it’s a thing. When I get married, something magical will happen. No, it won’t. A marriage is not a thing. A marriage is a relationship. Between two people, right? So a marriage is not like a sock or pants or a hat. It’s not a thing. And so the image that came to my mind was like, whatever you put in that.

So think of it like a soup. Marriage it’s like a soup. If you put crappy ingredients that are bitter in it, and rotten, you will have rotten bitter soup. But if you put ingredients that are fresh and wonderful and life-giving and healthy and organic, you’re going to have a great soup. Right? That’s the thing I think I wish people understood.

There is a marriage is not a thing. It’s what you create together. And however you show up whatever ingredients you bring is what you’re going to get back. Like if you’re total “b” all the time that you’re going to have the worst soup ever. Right. So bring better ingredients and get a better soup. It was suspended.

The whole time was just talking.

Kathy: I love that we’re going to eat better soup. Right? You guys have been wonderful guests and I’ll put all of the connections, anatomy of marriage, anatomy of family, anatomy of sex. You guys are brave. You go all out, talking about everything that everybody’s wondering about.

So thanks so much. It has been great meeting you and hope to see you again.

Yes. Thank you. It’s been a

Seth: pleasure.

 

Kathy: [00:00:00] Hi everyone. I am so happy to welcome Seth and Melanie steadily to the program. Hey guys,

Melanie: [00:00:09] Hello!

Seth: [00:00:09] How’s it going today?

Kathy: [00:00:10] It is going well. It is going well. So tell us a little bit about what you guys do currently, where you live.

Seth: [00:00:20] Yeah. Okay. Well, my name is Seth. I’m a licensed marriage and family therapist. We live outside of Seattle, Washington, and a little town called maple Valley.

We’ve been married 16 years and we have three kids and we do a couple of different podcasts

Melanie: [00:00:32] right in my name is Melanie Studley. I’m his wife and I do the editing audio engineer side of the show. Together, we do coaching. And then yeah, we have three podcasts, anatomy of marriage anatomy of family and anatomy of sex.

So yeah, that’s all we do. That’s our whole world. Yeah.

Kathy: [00:00:48] Yeah. And, and raise three, adorable little kids. I’ve seen them on Instagram.

Melanie: [00:00:53] They are pretty adorable. It looks like we have twins. We do not have twins. We’ve got two red-headed boys that are 15 months apart. And then our daughter, they are 12 and 13 and then our daughter is almost nine.

So yeah, we love kiddos.

Kathy: [00:01:06] Oh, okay. You have teenagers. I didn’t realize that

Melanie: [00:01:09] Yeah its a weird.. middle schoolers. Like it’s a whole weird thing, but it’s exciting. Yeah.

Kathy: [00:01:14] Yeah. It’s, it’s a new phase for sure. Well, we want to get to know you a little bit and I have a couple of questions that help us get to know the fun side of the Studleys. If your marriage was a team sport, What would it be?

Seth: [00:01:28] Oh, wow. That’s fun. Marriage was a team sport. It would be…

Melanie: [00:01:32] I feel like it would be football cause they’re just constantly getting knocked down and then we drop it. It feels right to me.

Seth: [00:01:41] Maybe it would be the pitcher catcher combination, right. Because the pitcher is always communicating with the catcher and vice versa. So they’re trying, you know, they have an objective kind of thing going on and sometimes they, you know, throw all strikes, which is great, or, you know, give up home runs and kind of blow it. So maybe, maybe that’s a really analogy.

Thats a really fun question, I love that

Kathy: [00:02:03] I’ve loved hearing couple’s answers to that very creative. And it gives you a little insight into, you know, how you view this thing called marriage. What are three words that you would use to describe your partner?

Seth: [00:02:19] Exciting hardworking and loyal.

Melanie: [00:02:23] Oh, those

Seth: [00:02:24] are nice!

Melanie: [00:02:24] I Think fun would be the very first one dedicated.

And I wanna, I wanted to say perfect.

Kathy: [00:02:42] Oh boy, you guys have done a lot of work in therapy,

Seth: [00:02:48] especially when you’re I have a podcast. We talk about this all the time and like throw it out there. So it’s like, every show we do is kind of a group therapy for thousands of people listened to right.

Kathy: [00:02:59] Getting insight into your work. Right. Awesome. What book or person has most influenced the person you are today?

Melanie: [00:03:10] I would say the book is: change your thoughts, change your life. And the person is the author, wayne Dyer. I was transformed by Wayne Dyer’s work. I found it. I don’t know. It was probably five years ago, maybe. Are you familiar with his work at all?

Kathy: [00:03:26] A little bit. Not, not intimately.

Melanie: [00:03:29] I mean, I ran into, there was a book or a movie that he made called the shift and you can watch it on YouTube, but he passed away I think a couple of years ago, but he’s just phenomenal.

And his whole thought process is essentially being in the present moment and yeah, I just love him. So he would be my person, my book person.

Seth: [00:03:47] Yeah. I have a different answer to that question. And it’s like, sometimes my kids will say, Hey dad, what’s your favorite song? Or what’s your favorite food? Or what’s your favorite city or country?

And I’m like, I don’t have one single. Anything. I like a lot of things, so I don’t have one favorite book or one favorite person. It’s a whole host of books or favorite people. And I tend to go to the, the kind of hero story somebody who has overcome stuff and actually created things and are an inspiration unto themselves and build things and inspire a lot of other people I’m just thinking about like Tony Robbins or Wayne Dyer, or this guy named David Goggins, just there’s there’s, there’s so many of them and I just go back to them and intersperse them all the time.

I don’t know. That’s that’s the answer.

Kathy: [00:04:38] And so more, a nonfiction sounds like, yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Seth: [00:04:43] I love the Hobbit and I love Lord of the rings and stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

Melanie: [00:04:46] You love classic hero’s journey stuff. Yeah. But also, yeah. Nonfiction stuff like that.

Kathy: [00:04:52] Yeah, I love stories. Both fiction and nonfiction, as you said, of kind of people that face challenges and that hero’s journey, how do you overcome it?

The challenges they faced and, and I’m kind of looking for inspiration, I guess, for sure. Very good. What, what is something Melanie that you took away from that book when you said it’s so transformed you?

Melanie: [00:05:18] I think what it was was this it’s a re the book is really big. It’s the change, your thoughts change your life.

And it’s like 81 verses of the Dao of Ching and like how the, how he was inspired to sort of it’s like really meditative, I guess that would probably be the thing that I took away was the meditative quality of how he writes. And he’s, it’s an audio book. I’m a total audio book nerd. I need to hear stuff.

And so it was almost like the first introduction that I had to really deep and slow thinking that was health based, like based on living a really, really healthy and fulfilling life versus just the, the sort of trying to get more like the rat race stuff. It was the first really kind of opposing worldview of that.

And so I would think the meditative side of it was what really was transformative for me. I just love it to pieces.

Kathy: [00:06:11] Awesome. Well, I will include that in the show notes and put that on my book list. I’m always looking for good books to read. Alrighty. I want to shift and get a little bit of your story.

We know a little bit about what you’re doing now and, but we’re going to get the back story. Leading up to the passion that you guys have currently for really seeing healthy marriages. Tell us a little bit, so you said you’ve been married 16 years. How did you guys meet?

Seth: [00:06:40] Oh, man. Okay. Well, so I’m from South Carolina originally and after I finished undergrad, my friends and I were in a band and we wanted to, after college do this more seriously.

So we all decided to go somewhere that’s really far away. So Seattle that’s about, as far as we could go, we were going to go to like Juneau, Alaska or something. Yeah. But Seattle, you know, it’s a music, a music city. There’s a half of the music scene. So we moved out here and got a record deal and toured and did all kinds of stuff.

And I met her of course at a Starbucks because she worked there and then I started working there at Starbucks part-time when we weren’t touring and on the road. So that’s where we met.

Melanie: [00:07:19] We worked together as friends for like a year. You know, I was dating somebody else and we were just friends and it was so fun because I got to really see when you work at a coffee shop that opens at four in the morning, you get to see a plethora of how people handle stress, how they handle being fatigued.

And so I got to really know him in this fun environment, but it was also like kind of stressful at times, and like a community environment as well. And then like the day I broke up with my boyfriend, we basically went out that day. And it was funny is that we went to this local park is lake wilderness is where we went.

And there was a log in the, like sticking out of the Lake. And we sat on this log and on our very first date, we said, You know, kind of interested in you and you’re interested in me and, but we don’t really want to like mess around. So if we’re going to date, let’s get married and if we’re not going to get married, let’s not date.

And that’s literally how we started. And then eight months later we were married. We went like, yeah.

Seth: [00:08:19] So fast forward, we’ve been married 16 years. We have three kids. And while I was in graduate school, we were also going to a church out here in Seattle at the time. And I was just feeling, there’s all kinds of stress.

I literally had three jobs and internship and full-time graduate school.

Melanie: [00:08:34] Well, and, and this was when we were very first married. So we had, I had a two week old baby and a 15 month old baby. So we had two kids, like four days apart, basically. And so this time it was really stressful because he was doing internships.

He was doing, I think at one point, I mean, he was going to school in Seattle, which is kind of far away from where we live. And so it was just all these stressors of young parent life. And then he confessed totally out of the blue that he had been lying and looking at pornography, but he confessed like, as I was holding our two week old baby and our one-year-old was sleeping in the crib and we were just in our living room and I was postpartum and I just lost my mind and like flew off the handle.

I threw the remote at him. Like every, it really revealed how much I did not know about myself and managing my emotions.

Seth: [00:09:26] Yeah. And we know that that’s a really big deal in marriages for, for men, of course, and for women too. But it was just, I had lied to her and it wasn’t very truthful cause I was like, Oh, I don’t want to hurt your feelings or cause more stress.

But of course that just compounding and compounding and it got so bad at one point that you know, we were literally like trying to save our marriage. Melanie, I came home and we were just arguing. Cause that’s all we did basically. And she gave me a black guy. Right. And being, you know, a new marriage, a family therapist, basically a new dad.

We’re like, Oh my goodness, what is going on? Something has to change in me. Something has to change in you. And that really brought to a head where we had no other choice, but to look at this front and center and address it and say, okay, where’s our marriage going? What do we want, what are we responsible for?

And it wasn’t until that point where we like just kind of both switched and said, Oh, I’m responsible for my happiness, my attitude, my whatever. Right. She’s not going to do anything that is going to fill whatever kind of void maybe in me, and then vice versa because so many young couples that get married and say, Oh, everything will be fine when I get married or engaged or when you have a kid.

But that is absolutely not the answer. And I’ve been doing therapy for about 13 years now. And I see that with couples all the time. So it wasn’t until that point, when we like, Ooh, clicks kind of, and it wasn’t just overnight. Of course, that started our transition into just consuming all kinds of content, books, sermons, podcasts, going to counseling, doing masterminds all 24 seven doing the inner work.

And it wasn’t until we were right, I guess, individually to some degree. And then we both got right then our marriage started. Right.

Melanie: [00:11:18] And, and in that too we, I totally lost my train of thought. I was going to say something really great. I was going to say something amazing and it totally flew out the window.

Well, oops, nevermind. And there we are. Oh no, I know what I was going to say. In that time we were looking for resources. But we couldn’t find anything that looked like us. Right? So there was so many books that were very much like clean and tidy, like, Oh honor, and obey and love your spouse and tell them how much you care about them.

And I was like, look, I hate this guy. I hate him. I don’t want to divorce him. And so that was what really started us on the journey of making our show is we wanted to have the resources or to make the resources we wish we had had back then to help couples who are like us. Cause there’s a lot of couples like us.

So, yeah, that’s our journey.

Kathy: [00:12:01] Yeah. And when you say like us, describe what that is that you weren’t finding.

Melanie: [00:12:06] There wasn’t a lot of really kind of gritty, like authentic was not super popular at the time. Everything was very like buttoned up very it’s either very clinical or very churchy, and those are fine things, but what I needed was the like, okay, What do you say to your husband when the first thing that comes to mind is I hate you every time they walk in the room, like, what’s the thing you say then?

And so it was that sort of raw kind of really calling a spade, a spade stuff that we were looking for. And you could even statically look at us like we have tattoos and our Seattle grungy people.

Seth: [00:12:38] So yeah, just something who we can identify with in a way, not, not just what the, I think market was saturated with maybe right at the time.

So yeah, one of the, I think you said it it’s we, we provide real help for real couples and we always create the content that we wish we had when we were going through the really hard stuff. Like when your wife punches you in the face or like when you’re, you know, up until 2:00 AM taking care of kids and fighting every single night for like a year and a half.

Kathy: [00:13:05] Yeah, miserable. And I just am so grateful that you guys have had the courage to come out with this authentic story. I followed you on Instagram for a while. I think sometime last year, about this time and using some hashtags and you all came up and I was like, Oh wow, cool. And because to your point, I think a lot of books are written from the point place where you’re at a really good place.

And it’s easy to say yes, sit down and come up with three things that you want to do on your date. But like you said, Melanie, like, I don’t even, I don’t even want to spend time with you right now, but something kept you fighting for your marriage. What was that?

Seth: [00:13:55] Hmm, that’s a good question. And it was, I think we talked about this on a show earlier.

It was the inner knowing. You know, I don’t know. I knew that we could make it through. Right. And there was a point where, you know, Melanie would just send me texts. Like if not daily, every other day or several times a week, I want a divorce.

Melanie: [00:14:19] I was really awful.

Seth: [00:14:20] I want a divorce I’m divorcing you. And I would just simply write back, no, we’re not getting divorced and not in a domineering and kind of controlling way.

It’s like, you know, I know in my heart that, that is the answer. Things are the worst they’ve ever been right now, but it’s not, we’re not going there kind of thing. And so another thing just kind of clicked in me to where it’s like, Oh my goodness, I can’t believe we’re in this position. Well, the reality, okay.

I had to accept, we were there. I don’t know what to do, but we’re both Christian and grew up that way. All I know to do is pray. So I set prayer alarms. And I think we did that for like a year one when we woke up in the morning, nine o’clock, 12 o’clock 3:00 PM, 6:00 PM. And then at bedtime, right? Or on my phone, we literally did that six times a day for her.

I called her. I said, Hey, I’m going to pray. Sometimes I wouldn’t even know what to pray. Sometimes she wouldn’t even say anything and just then hang up on me. But I was like, that is all I know to do. And I can’t go wrong with that. It’s like, you, you know, maybe even if, if some listeners are not religious or whatever, it’s like, okay, saving money is not a bad idea.

You are not going to go wrong. You’re not going to be sorry that you saved money, like an emergency fund or whatnot. I was like, okay, that’s all I got. I’m going to lean into that with all I got. And yeah. After that it began to change things, right. It’s like what does that say? A prayer doesn’t change, God, prayer changes you.

Right. And it’s like, yeah. Okay. That changed who we were. Right.

Melanie: [00:15:51] Yeah. And for me, there was a faith element where I was like, I really, and it wasn’t something that I was kind of getting from the outside. It was like this inner thing. Like, I don’t really want to divorce Seth, as much as I really hated his guts.

But then the other part of that was I knew even when I was super, super mad at him, I’m like, he’s an awesome dad. And he’s a great friend. And as much as I really like never want to look at him with my eyes ever again, I do think that if we can work this out, it will be better. And so it was like the tiniest teeniest ounce of hope that we could get through it.

That kept me going. And a lot of it did have to do with our kids, but I didn’t want them to be miserable. Like I didn’t want to save the marriage for the kids kind of vibe.

Seth: [00:16:32] We weren’t in that kind of trouble.

Kathy: [00:16:36] Hmm, but something kept you moving forward. And like you said, when you’re praying for someone it’s really hard to be mad at them.

Right. And for those that may not be spiritual or prayerful people, even just expressing gratitude or what you appreciate about that person is another way to stay focused. I think on. Right. The good things in that person. Right. That can get you through to that other side. But man, it, it sounds like it was a long, it was a long journey and it was what, what were some of the first, Oh, I think of springtime and the little buds that right out of the ground, it’s like, Oh, there’s something that’s growing here.

What, what were some of the first indicators that you had that I think we’re going to make it,

Melanie: [00:17:25] I think for me One of the first real signs that I was growing was that I used to journal a lot during this time. And before I just journaled all the time. And I had at some point, this is only a few, maybe even a few weeks or months into that.

The hardest time I looked back in my journal at the days of what I had written on the days that we were going through everything and I was looking at, and I read it and as I was reading it, I could feel, I just felt it in my body, this like dread come back in. It was like I had reinvited this unwanted guest back into my spirit, through rereading what had gone on.

And so in that moment, I’m like, you know what? I don’t need to hold on to that. This is not where I’m, you know, this is not my destination, so why am I even holding on? I ripped those pages out and literally burned them in the bonfire. So I’m like, I don’t need that. And I will never grow if I have that.

Almost like cancer just stuck in my story. And so that, to me felt really freeing really like, no, I am letting go of that. And I’m choosing on purpose to not walk that journey anymore. And even, I just, it felt so visceral. Like my heart just sunk when I read that. And so that was kind of one of the bigger moments for me of like, Oh, there can be like, it was like a little tiny bud opening in the springtime and you go, Oh, it’s not going to be winter forever.

You know? Yeah.

Seth: [00:18:42] I think just more days of waking up and not feeling dread because of the night before we had maybe had a good conversation or okay. We hugged or, you know, a kiss or something like that, wasn’t just awkward. It was like normal, you know? So just like little glimpses of hope, like little spring buds, as you said, would come up and just give me hope and give me hope and actually be able to see.

Oh, things, things are changing. Okay.

Melanie: [00:19:13] I love that analogy of like buds. I love spring. It’s like my, one of my absolute favorite seasons. And what’s funny is that I’m realizing now in spring, I look for buds actively. I look for them when we say we talked about it. Like even the blackberries have little tiny buds on them.

And so it is almost that sort of like reminds me of that, of when you’re trying to make transformation in your life, look for the buds. It’s not going to be big changes. You’re not going to see an Apple tomorrow, but there’ll be a tiny bud, you know,

Kathy: [00:19:39] and it’ll get bigger every day. It has the right conditions, right.

If it doesn’t get any rain or not enough sun, it could die or you could yank it out and you know, really kill it. Right. That’s really good. And I think in that process too their had, to be a trust factor of. Both of you regaining trust. And I heard someone say one time that trust is consistent behavior in the same direction.

And so again, that idea of, okay, here’s a little bit, I heard you say Seth, you know, there’s a little bit of anxiety or anticipation about how’s today going to go. And so if today goes, well, then we can add that and we can add that. And gradually it becomes at some point to the place where it’s hard to remember, gosh, what was that place where I couldn’t trust you or where I didn’t trust myself with my emotions or whatever the case may be.

Seth: [00:20:44] Yeah, it’s, it’s cumulative. And basically just adding up and adding up, it’s like walking over or driving over a bridge. There’s a lot of bridges in downtown Seattle and I’ve gone over this bridge. Didn’t crack. I didn’t fall in the water. Okay. Let me try it again and try it again. And Oh, okay. This is solid now.

Right?

But also trust takes a really long time to build. It can be broken in an instant. Right. And that’s what happened with us. And, but through consistent actions over and over and over, it’s just like, and it takes a long time. It’s like you don’t build an overpass bridge in two days either. It usually takes at least a year.

So keeping that in mind, if couples are working on rebuilding trust or continuing to maintain that trust, it takes work.

Melanie: [00:21:32] Right. And I think there’s sort of two ideas with trust that pop into my head. Cause one was, he was doing that daily prayer thing. Right? He has set prayer alarms. He did it on his own.

I didn’t ask him. He did it when I was mean to him. He did it if I was nice to him, which was basically never, he did it no matter what, no matter where we were, if he was in a meeting, he would step out and call me if I was grocery shopping, it didn’t matter. So he built trust. On his own without being asked all of that stuff.

And that was deeply important to me as a person whose trust had been broken. And then. Sort of a second thing that comes to mind when I think about trust and rebuilding it is that like when you build a bridge, you don’t just build the bridge. The bridge is being held up by supports like a ton of extra stuff.

Is there during the building process that we often don’t realize is there, we just say, Oh, they’re building a bridge. Like they’re putting the bridge sticks together, but they’re really not there. There’s like the bridge, they’re scaffolding, there’s things, holding it up all the time, the whole through. And when we are rebuilding trust in a wounded or injured relationship, We often need lots of extra support.

So whether that’s prayer, a community, your family, a good friend who supports and loves your marriage and looks for the best in your spouse, even though they’ve done something bad or whatever, that support is always there when you’re trying to rebuild a bridge. And so I think that’s a really important factor that I just don’t hear people talking about that much, that what, who we surround ourselves with in the rebuilding process is hugely important.

Kathy: [00:22:57] So true. I could not agree more. And you know, I, I was a marriage and family therapist for many years, and now I do coaching and some writing, but I saw a lot of couples in that time. And it was always heartbreaking when you would see couples that maybe hit that point and they’re like, that’s it. I’m outta here.

I’m done. But they don’t do that inner work, as you said, that was part of the important thing that both of you did was to do that inner work. I remember I had a couple, it was a really long time ago. So I think we’re way beyond the bounds of competence, no names here, but this couple came and he had some issues with alcohol and he wasn’t really willing to face it and they ended up divorcing and then I saw him alone.

And I remember so clearly saying to him, you need to not date anyone for like, at least a year. You need to work on yourself. And, you know, because a marriage is always two people, whether it’s good or whether it’s falling apart, both people contribute. And I said, you need to figure out what your part was in it.

Well, I might as well been talking to a brick wall because about, I. I don’t remember the timeframe now. It was less than a year. Yeah. Remarried sitting, sitting on my couch with a new wife. Oh man. Could have hit a button on the tape recorder with her concerns. And I was just like, I don’t know, you know?

Right. So it’s, it’s so powerful and great that you guys share that the hard parts of your story, because that’s part of what led me to launch this podcast is we talk about entrepreneurs a lot and hold them up as gurus kind of, you know, Steve jobs, wonderful guy, but man, his relationships suffered. Right.

And I’m just a real believer that we can change this narrative that you have to give up everything to have a successful business. So tell us a little bit about the business that you guys now have evolved, like how did this business begin and what does it look like along the way?

Melanie: [00:25:26] Well, again, it, it just developed out of our, it started with creating the show and the show is essentially just a resource for couples.

And we have such a heart for wanting to help people, like how can we talk about everything that Seth learned in graduate school in a way that everybody can understand that everybody can apply. So our whole mission has been helpful tools, helpful resources, realistic concepts, realistic, and practical tips and all that stuff.

And then slowly that morphed into people started sending us questions on our show. So we started answering their questions and it slowly that turned into, do you do therapy? Like, can you see whatever? So then that turned into coaching, which we love. Coaching is like our zone of genius for sure. And we coached together.

So we, we see clients together and I mean, I’ll just show it. I’ll share like my big gigantic picture dream. I don’t know if you know who Joyce Meyer is. She’s a preacher lady. Some people hate her. She’s a preacher lady, but I adore her and I want to be the Joyce Meyer of marriage where like you and I just do have a budget and resources.

Like most of them are free. And then we do some things where people come and do events with us or go out and do retreats and stuff. Cause this is something we’re just so deeply passionate about.

Seth: [00:26:40] Yeah. I think about the entrepreneurial side, we were talking about this a couple of months ago and sometimes folks are entrepreneurs because like, Oh, that’s the thing to do or that’s the label you want?

And then I own my own business, but well, okay. What is that? Well, I don’t know. I never work on it, basically nothing, but I have an LLC, so that counts, but I was just, we were talking about this and there’s, there’s been an entrepreneurial spirit in me for about as long as I can remember, I had my first job when I was 14 pumping gas at a gas station, running the store, and then like little things.

Well, yeah, it’s, it’s not legal now, you know, in the South, whatever. And me and my friends started a window washing business. We started a landscaping business. I had my own furniture building business that I would get old barn furniture and make and deliver to people. And then being in a band when we’re taking it seriously, it’s a very much startup business.

That was our main source of income. Right. And then, so I’ve always had that, that I guess that, that drive to- wait a minute, this really interests me. I don’t see it anywhere. Let me speak to it and see what I can create. Right. And I’ve been doing that as program developer and clinical supervisor in my former job.

So it’s always that. And then this is just more flight. Okay, we, here we go. And I, I, part of me, I think, I don’t know, I’m not tooting my own horn or anything, but just like contract language and starting LLCs and doing this. And it’s just, that comes easy to me where it, I don’t think it does to you, but then as a business partner, because basically we’re literally business partners and life partners you, you do, and you speak to my non-skilled, right?

Melanie: [00:28:26] Well, I do like content creation side, so that’s all of my brain space goes to that.

Seth: [00:28:31] Been really, really fun because we are very hard workers and it’s almost like this feels like the water we swim in and like just a fish doesn’t know. Oh, well, wait a minute. Of course I can breathe under water. I’ve never even thought about it before.

This is just kind of. Not, it’s not kind of, it is what we do. And it’s just what we do. Sure. Let’s talk about it. Let’s let’s build, let’s visualize and let’s go make it happen, right?

Kathy: [00:28:58] Yeah. Did either of you have entrepreneur mentors, like, did you have a parent or a close family friend that had their own business, or you said I can do that.

Melanie: [00:29:08] My dad is not quite, he’s not an entrepreneur necessarily, but he started a bunch of things. So my dad is native , we’re, native American on my side. I don’t look native American at all, but we are, my grandma was raised on a reservation. My dad is super dark and they, he was basically really poor when he was a kid.

And now he’s the head of a giant corporate he’s a CEO of a company has thousands of employees and he does really great work. He, he works in helping fields. So he has, they run soup kitchens, they house the most homeless people in Seattle. So my father was really inspirational in the sense of like, you can do anything, like if you do good work, money will come.

So he was really motivational and very inspiring and still is with me just following the dream of whatever work I wanted to pursue. And I think he was very happy that it ended up being like helping work.

Seth: [00:29:59] Yeah. That’s a great question. And my dad also was in business for himself, but it was always just one small business. He never had employees or anything. He was just as the sole proprietor of, of what he did. And I, I don’t know. It’s just, I, I see something and if I have the right amount of jazz about it it gets in my brain and it goes, all right, we, we are off to the races and sometimes that’s not so helpful to a marriage.

Melanie: [00:30:25] ADD helps.

Seth: [00:30:31] Yeah. With add though, it’s hard sometimes to get that focus or when you do focus, it becomes so narrow that you lose.

Melanie: [00:30:42] Yeah, we have lots of like operating procedures to weed out the add vibes. Cause sometimes it’s like, okay honey, we can’t chase everything that sparkles. And then it works in our favor.

Kathy: [00:30:53] Yeah. Yeah. And you said something earlier, Seth, about all these different interests. And are you guys familiar with Marie Forleo?

Melanie: [00:31:01] Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kathy: [00:31:02] Yeah. Well she talks a lot about multi. How did she term it? Multi interests. Multi-discipline yeah. It’s like multi interests, like people that have lots of different interests because that’s kind of her story.

She chased this and then that she really thought there was something wrong with her. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs also, if they don’t have someone that can validate that approach, they kind of think something’s wrong with them too. That was my husband’s story. He was like, until he was 40 something, he thought there’s something wrong with me.

I just can’t seem to hold a job and work eight to five, like other people I’m always thinking of something better, new ideas. Right. And we didn’t have that word entrepreneur. Right?

Seth: [00:31:48] Yeah. Yeah. It’s weird. It’s a, it’s a balance I, as, as I’m hearing you talking, I, I had started a private practice and did that for three years and had a whole clientele and the office and all that stuff while I was doing other clinical agency work 40 hours.

So I was just like working all the time. But yeah, that’s, I have felt kind of, Oh man, what’s wrong with me, Seth? Why can’t you just focus on one thing? What’s the deal. That’s why I had a hard time answering, you know, what’s your favorite book or most inspirational person. I’m like, I don’t have one. Yeah.

Melanie: [00:32:16] There’s a point that the life library of books, we own all the things

Seth: [00:32:19] you could throw a dart and say, yep. That’s why I love that one kind of thing.

Kathy: [00:32:25] Yeah. I totally relate. I do. What in this journey has been a high and a low of working together.

Melanie: [00:32:35] I think the highs, what I love and things that stand out to me, I was, when did we get to go to events and have events or co-host events and things like that, that is so exciting to get to travel and see people in real life.

Like we do a lot of stuff virtually. So we do our podcasts. We’re just in our, yeah. Yeah. But when it’s in our studio, we’re just in our house or whatever. But when we get to actually. See people and hug them and cry with them and root them on there is nothing better than that. And I get to turn and see this guy talking to someone else over there and hugging that person who’s crying.

I mean, there’s, there’s just no better feeling in my opinion.

Seth: [00:33:15] Yeah. I, I would exactly sum it up as the highest, like when we were on stage speaking together and it’s not like it’s all about us, it’s just, we’re in the zone of genius and you know, you can yeah. Like different athletes. They talk about a flow state where they’re just.

They’re not even thinking they’re just reacting and it’s, it’s perfect. You know, like a race car driver or a basketball player or a cellist on stage or anything like that. That’s the way that I feel when we’re on stage, like I can be talking about something and then just look at her and she, you know, gives whatever.

And then we just go back and forth. Now, some of the low huh?

Melanie: [00:33:52] Lots of lows.

Seth: [00:33:53] Well, there are, and that’s just the ups and downs. So any, any entrepreneur, any, any startup, first of all, But then any entrepreneur individually, and then if you have a husband and wife team. Yeah. Is that a word? A couple preneur . We have to manage the business and all that comes along with that.

And then, Oh, wait a minute. How are we doing? Right. Are we connecting date nights? You know, intimacy, all that stuff. And then of course kids. So I think one of the things where I have maybe something, I think it’s a great idea. Like a direction we should go for an Instagram live or a podcast or whatever.

She’s like, hold the phone, hold on. No, that’s no good. Or that’s not our focus or that’s not our mission, which I always think it is, but we have to have conversations around that and just those real practical things. So it’s like going into business mode. One thing I don’t like either, and this is funny is like in the morning when the first thing she hits me with is like, Hey, we need to talk about our client couple and what, what’s the plan for them to not having this?

We’re not bringing that in right now or like, you know, there’s a quitting time at night and really, really being intentional around that. That’s a constant kind of thing, but we do really good at.

Melanie: [00:35:10] Yeah. Yeah. And I think for me, it’s like, until I realized that our lows quote unquote lows were actually points of like, we could learn from each one of them before I understood that there was a lot more lows.

I would be mad at him for having an idea for Instagram live. Like, I’d be like, Oh, why does he think that’s a good idea? What an idiot. Like, I don’t know why I was so moody about it, but then I realized I’m like, wait, I can learn. Why does he want to do that? What is that? Like? What does that touch in him that is inspiring?

Maybe I can learn from this. And so in a way, our lows, when we have the right mindset can become learning moments and moments to understand ourselves and our spouse more deeply, which is great. But before then I was just kind of mad a lot. Yeah.

Seth: [00:35:53] Oftentimes I get, I like Gary Vaynerchuk a lot, you know, daily experience and he’s an entrepreneur and several other entrepreneur podcasts that I get.

And some of that things, because she hasn’t maybe not into Gary V so much, but he’s just like, espousing, you gotta do this. You know, attention is everything. Where are people going? You know? And I’m like, Hey, it might be smart if we get into this platform. And sometimes we have conversations. We can’t add another thing.

We’re doing Instagram live and Facebook and all that. And YouTube live and all the platforms are Tik TOK or clubhouse or whatever’s going on. And it gets too much. So sometimes I feel like, Oh, we’re leaving an opportunity on the table, but then she helps to kind of slow down. And then of course, if I think it’s a good idea, still we’ll have a conversation about it and lean into it.

Kathy: [00:36:39] Hm. And it’s a little challenging, I would think when you work together as a couple, doing couples work about communication and surely you have days when you still periodically go, Oh, I’m really mad at you. Or I don’t like you very much today. How do you handle those times when you’ve got to put on the happy face?

Melanie: [00:37:05] We’ve worked really hard on that, because that was something we’ve never wanted to be fake. So there have been times when this is I don’t know, maybe a year ago or something like that, where we had had like arguments and we said, we’re not doing the podcast today. Like that is not fair to our listeners.

That’s not right. We shouldn’t do that. And so we’ve worked really hard on mending things earlier, but even now, I don’t think we get mad at each other the way we used to,

Seth: [00:37:31] even on the opposite of that. Cause we’ve done a couple of times of 100 days of a of m, like 100 days straight, like no fail. I don’t care if somebody’s sick or mad we’re doing it.

Cause that’s what, you know, kind the, the, the plan was right. And so we would hash stuff out, live, live with our listeners. And you know, I remember when we, when was it probably, maybe in 2019, we were, I was just, I was kind of. Pissed at something, honestly, but we were on live and we were working it out and there were viewers saying, Hey, Seth, you got this for giving us that in real time.

Yeah. Which was amazing. Cool. And it was, it was neat because we got to model that. Right. And of course, like, I love Brenae Brown. She’s a big influence as well. You know, leading with vulnerability and vulnerability gives other people unspoken will not unspoken, but clear premonition permission to bring their own stuff.

And like, if we can pave the way, then I’m really comfortable with that. And I’m like, okay, fine. Let’s let’s, let’s talk about it. Yeah.

Melanie: [00:38:39] And I think that goes back to that point of, if we can’t fix it, we can, we can work on it on the show because there is nothing more important to relationships than having a model of healthy conflict resolution.

That’s real. So it’s one thing to see John Gottman at a conference. Pretending to resolve an argument and it’s a whole other thing to see Seth. And I actually do it in real time. And not that John Gottman is obviously he’s great and his work is amazing, but he would be doing like a pretend thing and we’re, and we have real emotions and we’re actually mad.

So so that’s, you know, it’s part of our whole thing. But yeah, it takes a lot of self-awareness I guess,

Kathy: [00:39:19] and encourage courage to be that vulnerable. On a live show. And how do you know where the boundary is? Is there a point where it’s too much? How do you know we’re being vulnerable? You mean

Melanie: [00:39:35] we we havent really talked about it, but we both have kind of a sense of where we are comfortable and then having to take into consideration.

We have children, we have family who watched the show, so we’ve never really talked about it, but we both kind of have a sense of like what things are okay to share and not share. And of course we don’t share other people’s story ever. Like if something happened in my family, I don’t say, Oh yeah, well, my mom did this and my dad did that.

Like that’s not ever, yeah.

Seth: [00:39:59] We’re not, of course like airing family laundry or whatever like that. But I do, we both feel strongly that it is, I feel like not, not a leader. I mean, we’re leaders in, in certain things, of course, but kind of right on the forefront of. Hey, it is okay to share at this level because people like Brenee Brown, I’ve done it.

And you know, they’re, they’re not dead. or hiding in a hole somewhere or whatever. So if they can do it, then I know that I can do it. What kind of work can I do on myself to be able to get up to that level? And like we’re running a business too. So I think if, you know, if we’ve gone on a show before. And we have some, you know, things that we’re going through, we always are able to show up professionally.

Right. Okay. There’s still a job to do. And I, I think that we, I don’t think, I believe that we do a really good job in that way, and we’re still able to be authentic and well,

Melanie: [00:40:57] and I think too, our sharing is missional.

There’s a purpose behind it. We’re not sharing for the sake of like you know, like this is clickbait or whatever we’re sharing, because we want people to understand how you walk through this conflict or how you create resolution here or there, whatever.

So that’s always like a, a kind of a thing we can ask ourselves, why are we sharing this? Are we sharing it for a reason to resharing it? Because. We want to be gossipy. No. So then let’s not share it. So that’s helpful, a helpful way to, for us to frame it.

Kathy: [00:41:24] So yeah, there was a live that you guys did. I saw it on Instagram.

I know you always do it on Facebook also. Right? It’s like my brain can handle that, but Seth, you were very vulnerable sharing about a big disappointment. You guys had a meeting that didn’t go the way you wanted, and you can share that story, but it was a very tender moment, Melanie, where you just stopped and turned to him and rubbed his back.

You connected with him. And I think that’s an example of just how you, you modeled. Look, I’m not going to gloss over it. You’re really hurting right now. And I want to be there for you. Right now it was, it was a beautiful picture, but that was a big disappointment. Can you guys talk about that story a little bit?

Seth: [00:42:18] Yeah. Thank you. First of all, for, for reminding me of, of that like moment, you know, I, now I’m clearly remembering like, Oh, what I shared and like the incident where I kind of got choked up and I think he started crying or whatever, because I, it was like, I actually real-time process that. Right. And a part of me didn’t know that it affected me that much, you know?

And so for her to, I mean, thank you for that reminder because like, Oh, that’s sweet. Thank you. Right. So we were talking to. Dave Ramsey folks. Right. And he had reached out to us. They had reached out to us and invited us to Nashville and we’d been back and forth out there a couple of times. And we were kind of on board, of course, nothing was nothing was a hundred percent of course, but we were getting fairly close, like, okay, would you guys move out here?

Are you willing to live here in Nashville?

Melanie: [00:43:13] Cause you like be the faces of a marriage rather than the Ramsey personalities, right.

Seth: [00:43:18] Is what they call them. And so that was just all I could think about for for a good, I think we flew out there in October of 20. I don’t remember what it is, but it was like, you know, half a year, eight months of just thinking I was going back and forth, trying to see if this would be a good fit and ended up not being a good fit obviously.

And but I, I just thought it, I was like praying about it and like seeing myself do this and visualizing a lot of stuff. So I spent a lot, probably too much of emotional energy just on that. Right. It wasn’t like an OCD kind of obsessive thing, but it was, if we’re going to move across country with our three kids and all this stuff, this is clearly a very big deal and will impact not only us, but our kids and all of our families and relationships.

Right. So there’s a lot of emotional energy around that. And long story short, it ended up, okay. You know, you guys just, I don’t, I don’t think we’re going to be a good fit. And this was like a week before we were slated to go out there again, slated to go out there again and speak to the entire thousand person company at one of their events.

Melanie: [00:44:27] Right. Like things arranged babysit, like everything, everything, tickets, car, everything. Right.

Seth: [00:44:34] So. Hey guys, I don’t think this is going to work out. And I remember being on the phone call with them and just, you know, hanging up and of course, caveat, major caveat. If something isn’t meant to be, that doesn’t mean that you know, there’s a huge falling out, or people got mad or somebody did something.

So nothing like that, we, we literally well after the fact, because I was like, Oh, what’s the, what’s the deal. But after the fact, I was like, you know what? I don’t think it would have been a good fit. And they had just seen that sooner than us, I guess. So of course we were disappointed. And so I was in my car and I was just like, almost speechless.

I’d put my head on the steering wheel. And I think I cried. I know maybe not. I was just kind of in shock. Right. And then I called Melanie and, you know, it’s just like, you know, felt like I got punched in the stomach, but I’m processing that. Was a lot, but I said the whole story. What was your view on it?

Melanie: [00:45:29] Well, I will sort of go backwards a little bit and it was so exciting.

That was kind of one of the high parts of, I would say, doing this work, we got to go out to Nashville. We got to go to a Ramsey influencer event. Like there is nothing more cool than that. We did a financial peace university when we very first got married. So Dave Ramsey is like someone we esteem so much.

Seth: [00:45:50] You were hanging out with Dave Ramsey, balconies smoking a cigar he’s standing right there. Like it was the weirdest thing. It’s just so trippy. Right.

Melanie: [00:46:00] But it was weird, but also really amazing. And so there was a part of that that was like, How is this? How are we here? Like I always remember saying, have they heard our show?

Like, did they just, why did they pick us? Why are we here? And so part of that experience was really, really amazing. And I would not change it for the world, no matter the outcome. And then when it, and from my perspective, I was fine with whatever the outcome was. I didn’t want to move. I didn’t want to leave my family.

We all live right in the same area. Our kids love their school. So I was not like, yes, it’s the best thing ever week. It’ll be the life changing whatever of the world. But Seth was like, kind of like that Seth was very much like, this is the thing we have to do. And I bet it will work. I know it will work and I feel it will work.

So from a wife’s perspective, it was really a weird to manage. Cause I’m like, I was the whole time trying to tell him, like, it might not work. It’s cool. If it doesn’t work, let’s just like slow our minds down. But that’s just kind of not how it is. So when it didn’t end up working, that was why you saw that moment on the Instagram live, where it was like.

It’s okay. Like, I’m not going to say, I told you. So that would be the worst thing ever in a million years to do. And, and I wasn’t trying, I wasn’t like putting on a show for our listeners. Obviously it was a genuine moment of like, we haven’t processed this and we’re going to do it right now and we’re going to share, and we’re going to be authentic.

Cause disappointments happen in life. Whether that’s personal disappointments, work, disappointments, health, disappointments, financial disappoints, doesn’t matter. People go through these things and if they don’t have a model or see how couples work through it, they don’t know how. And a lot of times people say, well, see, I told you I knew it was going to work.

Why were you so, blah, you know, so having that opportunity to share that moment with our audience was really important for me. And I had to make the clip. I had to make that clear both of us crying. And I was like, ah, that was cathartic. Like it was like, I got to watch it over and over again. But yeah, but it was a big, it was a big thing for us because family lives in the South.

So it was like tied into lots of other things. Yeah.

Seth: [00:48:02] When I say emotional energy, I mean, a lot of rain was going to that, but it worked out how it was supposed to. Right. We’re great.

Kathy: [00:48:10] Yeah. I’m curious what came up out of all of the excitement and anticipation more. So it sounds like for you, Seth, that you were able to maybe look at, okay, well, we can still get pieces of this.

Was there something that came out of that that was positive going forward?

Seth: [00:48:30] I I think for me just being completely immersed in behind the scenes stuff of like all the work that Ramsey does and their just the team work ethic and, and like how everything was professional top-notch that was a new experience for me to, to it, it set a bar for me to some degree, like, and for Melanie too, because we were like, okay, This is the standard that we want to do stuff at, like, okay.

Super hospitable, super like real let’s add value where we can give value and also receive whatever value because you know, everything is reciprocal. But that was one of the main pieces. I think,

Melanie: [00:49:13] I think, well, one of the best things that I took personally was just, they believed in us, they actually called us and that to have people who are doing that amazing of work in the world, helping millions of people saying, I actually believe in what you’re doing.

I see you. And I, and I validate what you’re doing. That was basically all I needed. Like to be like, Oh, it’s right. Like I’m doing good. Yes, I’ll do more. So that, that to me was a huge takeaway that even not, you know, nothing can take that element away from what I took away from it, if that makes sense. Yeah.

Kathy: [00:49:46] So great. Thanks for sharing that. What are some ways that you guys balance each other, in terms of personality, are you more alike or are you different in your personalities?

Melanie: [00:50:00] Really similar qualities. We love experiencing things. So we love, like, let’s just try it. Like, that’s kind of an energy we both really have.

But I think there’s even big cultural differences. Like he’s from the South, he’s kind of like a Southern farming, like you hunt and you do all the things and you catfish or whatever, and that’s not me. So there’s lots of like cultural things that are different. But we do, we have struck a good balance of he helps draw out.

My positive side, I have a tendency to be negative. My family of origin is pretty negative and sarcastic. He helps balance my negative side and bring positivity and I help kind of slow I’ve I’ve often used the example of he’s like a bullet train and family’s like trying to hang on the end. Sometimes I say, okay, I like hit the brakes a little bit, brother.

I need still go fast, but like just slow down. We can’t hold on. And I think we’ve found a good way of communicating when we see the imbalance in one another, without it being shaming or hurtful, if that makes sense. What are your thoughts?

Seth: [00:51:00] Yeah, I think very similar things. One thing that came up we, the, the Enneagram is something that has been helpful for me.

Not only personally, but in, in therapy and, you know, for coaching and stuff like that. And we talk about it a fair amount on the show. So I’m a nine and she’s a seven. And. They I think both of those numbers have certain characteristics that support one another, but then also can get kind of goofy at times.

Melanie: [00:51:28] Well, I’m a super. . Are you familiar with Enneagram? Do you do? I’m like a super strong eight wing, so seven, seven with a wing. And so when he doesn’t tell me his opinion, I’ll be glad to tell him mine and like bulldoze him with all my thoughts. So the Enneagram though has been really helpful in helping us understand how to navigate that.

And so I do less bulldozing because man, I had a tendency to do that.

Seth: [00:51:54] Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. The, the things that we’ve learned about ourselves through the Enneagram work the more I learn about myself and that helps me to articulate to you what I need, what I don’t need. Hey, let me give you an insight on this or you or, or vice versa kind of thing.

Melanie: [00:52:09] I feel like learning about his number was the most helpful thing for me.

Kathy: [00:52:14] True. I love the Enneagram for how deep it can go into doing your own work. I know a lot of people try to figure out, Oh, you must be a seven year old fun fun-loving or whatever, but they say you can’t type someone else, but it is very helpful when you know, someone else’s tight and how to adjust communication with that person.

And then how to do the deep work. Like you said, of really being at home with yourself and working on that shadow side. That really wants to see goodness. So many things I want to ask about. Let’s talk for a minute about a little bit about the reality, especially in this last year of juggling kids work, your work is all at home right now.

How do you guys do that? And to set boundaries? You, you mentioned a little bit about boundaries earlier, but can we. Dig into that a little bit.

Melanie: [00:53:16] Oh yeah.

Seth: [00:53:16] Yeah, sure. So primarily for the majority of our marriage, we’ve been married 16 years. I have worked outside of the home. So had acommute, gone to different job sites or whatever.

And Melanie has primarily been at home, taking care of the kids and stuff. And so with, with COVID of course I’m not gone as much in, in 2020. And of course now in 2021, plus I recently just quit my full-time job to do this full-time so. Wow. Yeah.

Kathy: [00:53:45] Wow. That’s huge.

Melanie: [00:53:47] Yeah. It’s really awesome. So that was only last week.

Seth: [00:53:50] Last Monday. It’s not, it hasn’t been two weeks, two weeks. So we’ll see. I don’t know. You want to, you want to dive into that?

Melanie: [00:53:56] Okay. Yeah, a lot of, so it’s weird because COVID started and our kids immediately got taken out of school like last March or whatever. So it’s been, that was hard. Cause our, our kids are, we have, our kids are just like us, right?

So all the time everybody’s talking, everybody’s dancing. Everyone wants to make a fun, special meal. Like it never is quiet or calm in our house, which is a gift. But sometimes it does not feel like an amazing gift. And so we I’ve had to this last year has been a lot of me, a lesson or loosening my, what would the word be.

I’ve had to ease up on lots of stuff. Like the house can be messier. That’s fine. No, one’s going to die. Dinner can be something easy. That’s fine. No, one’s going to die. Like a lot of it has been my own personal work and how I walked through this season, but I will say one of the best things is having friends and family nearby where I will go like set to come home from work.

And I would go take a walk with my neighbor. She has kids the same age. We, she, and I go, we take a walk for an hour and a half. We’re only talking about whatever we want to talk about. Right. So there’s a lot of like, outside things that we’ve had to put into place, like taking walks or having like shopping days with just my mom and my sister so that I don’t lose my mind.

Cause it’s a lot to be with young kids constantly. Again, it’s a blessing, but it is kind of a lot, but then especially during COVID.

Seth: [00:55:18] Right. And I think that we, we got into a groove, I don’t know. It was, it’s almost like, of course we espouse intentionality and stuff, but I’m gonna go back on basically what we say.

And it’s it’s as if we kind of stumbled into this in some sort of innate knowing, like I know it’s the right thing to do when Melanie has been home with the kids all day or whatever, and she just says, Hey, I’m going on a walk with my best friend, be back in an hour and a half.

Melanie: [00:55:48] Yeah. Like he doesn’t ever get mad at me,

it’s not

Seth: [00:55:50] yeah I’m not going to be weird about it that were super or, you know, like all that stuff and vice versa, like.

She knows that when hunting season comes around, I enjoy hunting or snowboarding outdoor stuff. And I can say, Hey, I would like to, how about this? One of the best things that we, one of the coolest interventions that we do and with each other, and then tell our clients is asking what our spouse is expecting usually.

Yeah. Every day, we wake up on a Saturday or whatever, say, Hey, what are your expectations for the day? Because every single time, we’re just not on the same page. Exactly. I need to be very clear of what her expectations are because not a hundred percent they’re going to be different from mine. Well, I thought I would go hang out with the guys for 12 hours. I don’t think so.

Melanie: [00:56:44] You could say something like, Oh, well Saturday is family day. What does that mean? What is your expectation of family day? What’s my expectation of that. They are not going to be the same thing. So that’s helped ease a lot of, a lot of stress in our marriage. It’s just asking what are your expectations for the next three hours?

So the next day or whatever there was something else I was going to say too, that I think has been helpful, but I can’t really.

Seth: [00:57:04] Yeah. Well, just those boundaries. I, I think I said it earlier, Melanie. Like her dad can just work nonstop 20 hours a day. Me when I’m ready to go to bed. I say, all right, everybody let’s go to bed.

I’m going to talk to the kid. She can go to bed when I want and asking and working and stuff. And I would say, listen, I’m not not doing this right. We can hit it tomorrow, you know, 7:00 AM or whatever. So having those boundaries around it, and she is really good because I have a million ideas. In fact, I think we had to reschedule a podcast early this morning because she was like, Seth, we’re doing three podcasts today.

And then we have three clients later on with all these other meetings. What are you doing? So she reins it back in because I can go, all right, I’ll do 10 podcasts today. I don’t care. I can do it right.

Melanie: [00:57:56] That our kids don’t need to eat or see their parents talk about those boundaries with one another. And the whole thing I was going to say that I forgot was that we also have a shared.

Sort of larger objective and goal as a family and a couple, like we want to have happy, healthy kids. We want to have a fun relationship with them when they become adults. So that actually hones in and removes. So it focuses in on what we know we should do. And it removes the stuff that we know we shouldn’t do.

So me needing to take a walk with my friend, if I’m kind of stressed out, he goes, that’s the best thing for our overall mission. No big deal. If he needs to go to bed at nine and I love to stay up late that’s okay. No big deal. Like we’ll, we’ll work it out because our biggest mission, our bigger goal drives us towards these sort of the positive outcomes that we want.

And that’s one of the things I wish that more people talked about was having this sort of larger objective or goal in your marriage because it helps eliminate things that don’t meet that objective and add in things that will get you there. That makes sense.

Kathy: [00:58:55] That is so good. I wish we had more time, but I know you guys have other podcasts.

Yes. And clients, and one, yeah, last question, because I know you love this work. If you could share some, something that would maybe catch people upstream, you know, that story about people that rescue people that are falling over the waterfall. And it was like, well, what if we could stop them upstream? Do you have a thought or two about what you would like to share with other couples before they go over the Rapids with the waterfall?

Melanie: [00:59:34] Right? One of the things that comes to mind, what’s been on my mind a lot lately. Is this idea of how does your negative energy, your anger, your bitterness, your frustration, your sarcasm serve you. How does it serve you? How does it serve you in parenting? How does it serve you in your relationship? It only gets you more of what you bring.

Like it you’ve you bring this terrible negative energy, you, and again, this is almost me speaking to my younger self. I came in to our marriage just negative and sarcastic and really blaming Seth for everything. And I wish that someone had asked me like, how’s that working for you? How does it make your marriage better?

How does it stop a fight from happening? How does it stop your kid from hating you like it? Doesn’t newsflash. And so I wish that, that I had had that someone say that to me to catch me upstream and be like this isn’t serving you. And it never, ever will yelling at someone will never serve you. It will never make it better.

They’re never going to like you more, the more you nag and yell and scream and cry or whatever

Seth: [01:00:35] Its that Southern saying that, I’d say it used to say often you catch more flies with honey, right?

Melanie: [01:00:40] I used to get so mad at him for saying that

Seth: [01:00:46] you get more of, you want, if you’re putting out what you want.

Melanie: [01:00:50] Right. Right. Flies, apparently

flies.

Seth: [01:00:58] I would say a similar thing. I would speak to the guys in this way of, Hey man. Think of it this way, your wife doesn’t really owe you anything just because you got married, just because you’re so great. You’re the main breadwinner or whatever. This is a relationship and you need to go get your stuff, right.

And then lead and step up and lead that like lead with vulnerability and do the work yourself. Before you can have a good marriage and actually be in good relationship with your wife, right?

Melanie: [01:01:31] Can I say one last weird thing? Spin on my head the whole time. So earlier we were talking, this image came to my mind. I don’t know why, but people think that marriage is a thing. Like it’s a thing. When I get married, something magical will happen. No, it won’t. A marriage is not a thing. A marriage is a relationship. Between two people, right? So a marriage is not like a sock or pants or a hat. It’s not a thing. And so the image that came to my mind was like, whatever you put in that.

So think of it like a soup. Marriage it’s like a soup. If you put crappy ingredients that are bitter in it, and rotten, you will have rotten bitter soup. But if you put ingredients that are fresh and wonderful and life-giving and healthy and organic, you’re going to have a great soup. Right? That’s the thing I think I wish people understood.

There is a marriage is not a thing. It’s what you create together. And however you show up whatever ingredients you bring is what you’re going to get back. Like if you’re total “b” all the time that you’re going to have the worst soup ever. Right. So bring better ingredients and get a better soup. It was suspended.

The whole time was just talking.

Kathy: [01:02:37] I love that we’re going to eat better soup. Right? You guys have been wonderful guests and I’ll put all of the connections, anatomy of marriage, anatomy of family, anatomy of sex. You guys are brave. You go all out, talking about everything that everybody’s wondering about.

So thanks so much. It has been great meeting you and hope to see you again.

Melanie: [01:03:01] Yes. Thank you. It’s been a pleasure.