Episode 37

Kathy: Hey everyone. I am joined today by O L & Sway Buckley, and it is my great honor to have them today. How are you guys?

Sway: We’re wonderful!

How are you

OL: Doing very well, glad to be here? How are you?

Kathy: Good. I am doing well. Thank you. And third time’s a charm. We’ve had to reschedule a time or two, and I just thank you guys for hanging in there with me.

So welcome.

Sway: Thank you for having us.

Kathy: Tell us a little bit about where you guys are. I follow you on Instagram and I can’t quite figure out where you are.

Sway: We are in New Jersey, North Northern the Northern part of New Jersey right outside of Hey, New York city. Yeah, literally on the other side of the Hudson.

Kathy: Yes. Okay. Did you move somewhere this year? Because I remember a story about getting a bunch of stuff out of storage.

OL: So yeah. So a few years back we, we moved from Texas after having been there about 19 years,

Sway: and then those things were saying you just left it there! So she’s like, okay,

that was a prompt, right. So you can know what happened. Like how do we, what was that you were seeing is what the question was about? I get it. And so that time when we moved from Texas the things that we left there were left in moving pods. And so recently, I guess that was last year. We have my family specifically my mom’s side, we have property down in in South Carolina.

And so instead of leaving our things in the pods, now that she has, she put a house on the land. And so we just brought our things to the other property in South Carolina. So that’s what you were seeing.

Kathy: Gotcha. I have been wondering, okay. Mystery solved.

I want to start off with a couple of fun ways just to let people get to know you a little bit. If your marriage was a team sport, what would it be?

OL: Yeah, that is a great question. And I kinda, I feel like it would be two different ones. On one hand, I feel like we are bobsledding

Sway: Really? We’re bobsledding

in our marriage?

OL: Sometimes I’m pushing and she’s steering sort of the nose and sometimes I’m steering the nose. She’s pushed me. It just depends, but then I also think it’s probably a little bit of curling or is that the word curling?

Kathy: Oh, that’s funny. We all watch it in the Olympics, but it’s like, what is this?

Sway: The things you learn about your marriage on a podcast interview? I tell you

I don’t know. I would say basketball, maybe. Just the different roles. I mean, we will play different roles in, in, in each of us will we’ll do it. See, I probably shouldn’t do basketball because I don’t even know all the different players, but the goal is to get the ball inside of the basket. And so we are throwing the ball back and forth, rebounding.

And in doing, what do you call them? Don’t come in scoring. dunking

Kathy: there you go. And just so you know, I think dancing is a sport.

Sway: Yes, it is. It is. It absolutely

OL: is a lot of coordination involved there, for sure.

Kathy: Yeah. For those of you listening, you just have to follow married preneur life on Instagram because they post the most adorable.

posts And they are the best dancers ever.

I’m wanting. OL to give my husband some lessons. So there you go. Yeah. No pressure, no pressure. What is the craziest or most fun thing you guys have ever done on a date? So far?

Sway: The craziest and most fun thing we’ve done on a date for, I don’t know if we have the same answers, I would say this is crazy.

This is before we got married crazy. And I mean, it was crazy if we were married too, but young and naive when we first met not first, first, but pretty new. He was taking me to different. He was, well, I don’t know. Well, he was taking me to different places. I was new to Texas, going there for college for undergrad.

And so he was just like showing me the vision for what he saw for our life. Like, I want to sh I want to take her to this exclusive neighborhood with these houses, these huge homes who were, you know, just being, you know, built and some of them model homes or, you know, some are completed, some aren’t.

And so it was in a very it was a, you know, gated community. And so he, we drove this, I don’t know, like the area, and now I’m just like looking like, Oh, these are nice. So I’m not really thinking anything. Other than, okay, this is cool. But then he’s like, let me show you something. So he parked the car, we get out the car and it’s dark outside.

So it’s nighttime, it’s dark. And so, yeah,

OL: let me say this it’s after business hours, that’s, that’s, that’s an important part.

Kathy: So

Sway: go, we go these houses. So we ended up trespassing on a date and I felt like, I don’t know if we should be like, this is not our house. Like, this is trust me. And I’m just like, okay.

I don’t know. And so, you know, after the back hindsight, I was, you know, we talked about, I think you told your mom and then she was like, you guys should have never, what are you doing? The cops could come, and you’re trespassing

and I was like, I didn’t even know. You know? So that was kind of crazy not to look back on it. As a date, I mean, young and naive and trying to show me, take me, give me the role. Yeah,

OL: that that’s, that’s definitely a good one. I would say it would have happened during our, it was on our honeymoon. We were in Mexico and we were, she wanted us to sort of go off the resort and sorta just make our way into town.

Sway: I want to be with the people.

OL: And so we there’s a, there’s a cargo van. I don’t, I don’t know how we got this cargo van was a cargo van. You know, one of the ones with no

Sway: windows. No, you’d have to back up at the airport. When we were leaving, when we were arriving, we were leaving the airport, they have all these different people there that no, they

OL: bombard you for like the sit in on the session here, the presentation

Sway: and the timeshare

and so I signed it. Doesn’t we don’t live here. We’re not going to buy anything right now. We’re just barely. Yeah. That’s what it was a massage and a meal. And so we were like, okay, we’ll do it.that You know, we didn’t, we were so young naive & we were like, OK, that sounds like fun and so that’s when we went down, then they picked us up in a unmarked yeah.

OL: In a, in a industrial cargo van. And so we go, they couldn’t come onto the property. That should have been red flag. Number one, you have to come off the property onto the street. So I didn’t know up from down at this point. So we go off the property, go into the street, we get into the cargo van. There’s like two other guys in there.

And then I realized. I realized I forgot

Sway: to bring the paper that he gave us the paper paper.

OL: And so the guy says, Oh,

Sway: The guy says, Oh,

OL: you can leave your wife. He said, she can stay. And we’ll be here when you get back,

we’re looking at each other and she’s like, you better not leave.We’ve been married less than 24 hours.It’s funny if you ever seen those like those videos of people skydiving and like two people do it together and they’ll hold hands simultaneously. We held hands and jumped out of the van simultaneously.

Sway: Good, but, you know, they were there when we did come back and they were still waiting there and it was actually a great trip.

Like they fed us well, we listened to the presentation, but we just told the lady who just got married yesterday. So we’re not going to buy property

if we haven’t even purchased our first home together. So she’s like, okay, I’ll go. But just next time, make sure you let people know that you’re not. I’m like, okay, you didn’t ask all that. I would’ve told them, but just wanted to have us come. So they, we did that full day of massages and ended up being in a commercial.

Like for the resort, it was great. They said, Hey can

OL: can can we film you guys and put put you guys in. I was like, sure. They gave us extra food. Let us stay longer. Yeah, but our crazy days involved a little bit of danger.

Sway: Just a little bit. Yeah.

Kathy: I had a feeling. That’s why I asked that question. I haven’t asked that

I don’t think of anybody else that you guys were kind of there on the edge. And OL was glad that that wasn’t one of the times that you left her there and said, just trust me.

Sway: I would not

Kathy: Smart man smart, man. What is a book or a person that has affirmed or influenced the person you are today?

OL: Yes. So many ways to answer that. Go ahead.

Sway: I know, I would say there’s a lot of ways to answer that for me as well too, but one of the recent books. I’ve read it. I’ve read some of his books years ago, but then as of recent revisiting John Maxwell’s, book, , and reading about just the importance of how can you talking about leadership, but just how you treat people and that being a big part of, of the process of being a good leader, like really, really caring for people in order for you to, to have make deposits and then make withdrawals in that relationship.

So definitely John Maxwell is up there for me.

OL: Yeah. That’s that’s, I’m trying to pick, right. Cause I’ve been sort of checked out by several books, but if I had to choose one of them

Kathy: and you’ve got your books just line the wall behind you. So I’m sure it’s hard to pick one.

OL: There, there is one that I’ve read most recently and it’s called Gentle and Lowly.

And it’s by an author, Dane Ortlund and it’s when Christ said, you know that, that I am gentle and lowly. And so it’s really dealing with meekness and really just, just, just growing in and maturing in the love of God has been a, it’s been a great book.

Kathy: Very good. I’ll try to hunt down those titles and put those in the show notes.

So I want to hear a little bit about y’all’s backstory before we get to what you’re doing today, but I picked up through just, you know, following you guys on Instagram that you dated a very long time, tell us how you met and what, what that long courtship was about.

Sway: Yeah. Well, we met at church actually.

He was a janitor for the church at the church, and I did not know, I don’t even, he says I walked on his wet floors. I don’t even remember doing that.

OL: She ignored the yellow caution with fluorescein, so

Sway: you can ignore it. I just had to get up the stairs and the floor was wet in front of the stairs. So I still had to get to my, I had to get to the stairs, you know?

So

OL: mop the floors, somebody, just somebody just sashayed across it!

Sway: Would you have around it to get up the stairs? Like the floor was wet. So, and then I asked him a question that was actually having a pastoral meeting and to see if the past was the pastor’s office was upstairs. And so I just asked him if, you know, if the pastor was in and I, you told me yes.

And I went up the stairs. I didn’t think anything of it.

OL: So it was on a Monday. And so most churches don’t have a lot of people there on Mondays, at least not Monday morning. So I, based on what I knew, I knew that pretty much any car in the parking lot that was not mine or a few of the staff members had to have been hers.

So I went out and that’s when I saw her her little red Toyota and I said, taken, she drives a red Toyota.

Sway: It was I guess you would call it, what do you call it? You were tracking me after that.

OL: Yeah. So like, if you ask her, she would say, it’s stalking. If you ask me, I would say it’s gathering Intel

Kathy: gathering Intel.

Woo. So how long did you gather Intel, before you asked her out.

Sway: I don’t even know how long it was, because I don’t remember him. I don’t remember. I remember the pastors meet, like, meeting with that pastor because he was new at that time. And I was, I’m working on doing some things with the youth. So that’s why I remember that meeting, but he said that’s when he was there.

So I vaguely remember somebody being there. So I don’t even know time-wise how long it took for him to approach me. But I will tell you this, when he did approach me, it took a year for him to get my number. And it was just a lot of different things. And we just hadn’t seen each other a lot or, you know, when we did see each other, it was a huge church.

So by the time we run into each other over that year, that I finally, when he asked me again about it, I gave it to him and then, so that everything went really slow in that regard. I just wanted to make sure he wasn’t some crazy guy. So if he can be this patient okay. And I actually spoke with my father too, and I’d asked him, I said, this guy asked me for my number.

And he said, well, watch him, you know, watch him for a while. And I was like, I’ve watched him for a few months. And he was like, what are you thinking? And I was like, he seems okay. He’s like, okay, well give me your numbers. I was like, Oh, okay. That’s what I was supposed to do. Okay. So, and that was really like my green light just to do that next step.

But yeah, so I think it was that first year. And then the remaining nine years after that,

OL: you know, it’s so funny. Just before. I don’t, I don’t know how long it was prior to us getting here to, prior to me proposing, but I just, we, we laugh about it today. Her, her mom used to say, Hey, what’s going on with that Otis guy?

He just keeps hangin around right? Yeah.

I’ve just been hanging around for like nine years.

Sway: Oh

yeah. I think we were just really young. And so I think that plays a big part of it, for sure. I was like 19 when we met. So. And I was fresh out of high school. Well, 18, 19 going into my sophomore year of college. So, you know, it was just like, we weren’t, I don’t think we weren’t mature at that point, you know, enough to have a sustain of a marriage that will be sustained, like, but by our choosing.

So I think that was, it was just the timing of it. And then I went off to explore more of the world. I mean, my background is in dance, so I came out to New York to do some dancing and just live life, you know as a single person, we were still in a relationship, just it a long distance, but it was still like, we’re just going to be, there was nothing for me to wait around for.

I’m like, I’m not going to put my life on hold. I’m just going to keep living and, and we’ll see where this goes. And yeah. And

OL: so, yeah, and I was, I was in the music industry and sort of pursuing that life and, you know, that’s, that’s all consuming and so. You know, between that and just sort of me hanging around.

Sway: Yeah, I love it.

Kathy: Well, and that, you know, that demonstrates some wisdom really, because we were 21 and 22 and we didn’t wait around. We just said, well, let’s go. So yeah, that, to me shows some wisdom in your relationships. So you guys have been married, how long at this point?

Sway: 11 years now. 11

Kathy: years? Yeah. Okay.

Wonderful, perfect years. Right? Right.

OL: So you add it all up. I think we’ve known each other 20 years.

Kathy: That’s amazing. That’s amazing. Well, tell us also a little bit about your backgrounds. I’ve read up a little bit and and you guys, kind of came from different directions and gradually merged as entrepreneurs. So I’d like to hear a little bit about how you got to where you are today.

So whoever wants to start tell us how you, you know, kind of your work background and did you know you were an entrepreneur?

Sway: Yeah, well, for me, I started my first business at the age of 16. It was the tutoring company. I did not even know I was starting a company. I didn’t know what I was doing, but the opportunity presented itself to tutor kids.

And it started with some of my cousins who came to live with my family. And one of my youngest, the youngest cousin, it was three of them who came the youngest one, she was five and she was not reading. And it bothered me. And that, you know, 16, you don’t know what your gifts are. You don’t know that you’re a teacher.

And so I just, took some cards, index cards. And I started making, you know, little words for her, alphabet. And by the end of the week, she was reading from a book and my mom was like, that is not week. Like, yeah. She was like, that’s, that’s something special. And I was like, Oh, I don’t know. Like, I’m just a kid. I’m like, I just knew she needed help.

And I want my cousin to be able to read and she’s five, she should be reading. Like, that’s just what I thought. And so the next thing, I know, my mom told one of her girlfriends about it who had a son around the same age who was having issues reading as well. And so that was my first client. And that’s, it just grew from there.

Well, from there, I, when I went off to college, I continued tutoring, but it was more so like autistic children and happened to be all boys. And so I did a lot. And as a dance major, I did a lot of fine and gross motor skills with them, but also phonetics and just basic things with them. I enjoy working with kids.

And so. I did that. And then my sophomore year in high in college, I started, I didn’t even know what it was, but I’ve come to find out later that it was a staffing firm. So it was a staffing company. I started where the school districts partner with the school districts as my clients and as a dance major, they wanted me to meet initially to come and teach.

And of course I was trying to pay for college. And so I said, well, sure. And I could only teach, but so much because I was a full-time student dance major, double minor in business and religion. And so I started teaching and then they asked for more. Now, mind you, I’d never taught before. I just was like, okay, you’re giving me an opportunity to make some money.

That’s all I hear. So I’m going to think, and I’ve worked with enough kids, I can figure it out. It can’t be that hard. And so that’s really what I did as a, started that as a freshman into my freshman year. And then they asked for me to do more hours. And so I was like, I can’t but I didn’t want to say no, cause I’m like, this is helping me pay for tuition.

And so I said, well, can I, can I bring on people like, can I be the in-between and I can refer and bring people under me is what I was thinking. They said sure we just need people. And so I started hiring my friends, you know, I said, Hey, you want to make some money when I get paid, I’ll pay you a portion of this.

So I was able to make money off of them working in more and more people. They started hiring like needing more and more people, not just dancers, but. You know, thespians and visual artists and musicians, and I’m like, I’ll find them, I will find them. And so I was like, I would just go to the art department here at school.

I’m sure there’s some kids who want a job. And so that’s how I started. And that literally paid my way through. I mean, it’s a very expensive process, but actually, I mean, I’d say expensive. Like it, it, it really started bringing in revenue quickly, but it also opened doors for other scholarships. I ended up getting a education scholarship, a business scholarship, cause I had the business.

And then I did the religion and when I was answering phones initially and being in the religion department I was able to hear about different scholarship opportunities. Cause it was, you know, I was out of state and it was a private institution. So it was like all these fees on top of everything.

And then I was an RA, so I was just finding ways to pay for school. And so I’m thinking this is just another way. So with the religion department, I find out that there’s a scholarship. If you’re, if you minor in religion, they’ll pay half your tuition. I was like, What do I need to do to minor? Just what do I need to do?

Classes all three extra classes, sign me up. Okay. I’m a religion minor, you know, half my tuition. And then for business, I was getting scholarships, you know, because now I had this business. So bank of America was giving money. All these different donors. I was just, you know, applying for app, you know, for, for, for money.

Cause I’m like, I need to figure it out. And then the education department, because I had my business once again, working with school districts, then as my partners as my clients and none of the education majors were going after the scholarship during this time. But I, you know, was pretty persistent with going after it.

And so because of the company that I was running, the education department granted me like a full ride, even on top of the money, you know, they pay for everything. So there was some retroactive. Yeah, they, yeah. They were like, whatever you want. Wow. Yeah. So I think I had for that business, I still run it today and literally it was open door to get everything, you know, paid for my tuition.

And so after that I said, well, I’m just going to keep this job because this is, and then, you know, really quickly it brought on started earning, you know, multiple six figures and very early in on just hiring people. And I just felt like this is an opportunity to have a revenue stream and still, you know, dance, do what I love to do.

So that’s how that was the beginning of my entrepreneurial journey.

Kathy: And did you call yourself an entrepreneur at that point? Or were you, it sounds like you were just like, I need money. This is an opportunity you didn’t overthink yet.

Sway: No, I didn’t overthink it at all. I knew I wanted to do business, which is why I minored in business from jump street.

I just didn’t know what that was going to look like. And I just didn’t know. I knew it was a business. I just didn’t know. I didn’t even know what to call it. I’m like, I don’t even know what this is that I’m doing, but it’s paying the bills. I was like, you know, and so that eventually a couple of years into it, I think maybe my junior year I started thinking, well, is this a, is it a staffing firm?

Like, what is this that I’m doing? I didn’t even know. Like, what did it like, you know, I just didn’t know. And so I said, well, I think it’s a staffing firm. And then I said, well, I think, but it’s not a staffing. Cause I was, I would think like corporate America, you know, staffing in that regard. But I was like, this is not that this is something different.

I don’t even know. I’ve never seen this, what I’m doing. So I’m just gonna keep doing it and figure out what to call it. So when people would ask me what I did, I just said, I’m a dancer because I didn’t know how to explain what I did. I was just like, Oh, I dance or I teach dance, but I never explained, Oh, I run a creative art staffing firm so that, you know, a couple of years into it, I said, I think this is like a creative art staffing firm?

Like, cause at first I was like, as a dance staffing and I was like, well, it’s creative arts. But then it turned into me hiring like coders and all these other types of people that did great things for the kids as well too. So I just call it a creative arts staffing firm, to this day. That’s what it’s called.

That’s my story.

Kathy: And ed, you’re still running that. Right?

Sway: Right. It just ebbs and flows. I don’t, I’ve never done like one. I’m not gonna say never when I graduated, that’s when I started doing marketing, like grassroots marketing, knocking on doors. Boys and girls clubs. Cause I moved from that area to another city and I’m like, I have to start over, but I was like, I know what to do.

I’ve been doing it. And then I got other contracts with some pretty pretty well-funded organizations. When I started from the beginning with me teaching and then I just started bringing on people again and rebuilt it. And, but that’s the marketing that I’ve done. I haven’t done anything else in, in that sense.

So I say that to say, so when opportunities come nowadays, I’m just a pretty well oiled machine and I that’s, you know what I do in the background.

Kathy: Gotcha. Okay. And did you have a mentor, Sway, that. Maybe you didn’t even consider them a mentor at the time, but somebody in your family or a family friend or someone that also had their own business that even gave you the idea that you could do this, or was this just an internal,

Oh, it was, this can do this.

Sway: Definitely an internal I, there was a, I kind of had a freak accident. I can talk about that. I had a freak accident, the third day of college and where I was sewing a ballet shoe and I jumped off the bed and the needle broke off inside of my foot, and they thought they were going to, amputate, so long story short, all gosh, after, as my foot is swelling up, like a couple of weeks into it because nobody would touch it because the main doctor in the neighborhood said, don’t leave, like leave it in for six months or six weeks rather, and then come back.

And anyway so by the time I finally found his counterpart is equal, they were like, yeah, this needs to come out right away. So I was on crutches at first full semester. And that’s when, and I still had to go to my dance classes and watch them dance and journal and stuff. So I just, it just brought me to my knees really.

I say, okay, God, well, what is it that you have for me to do? I know this is something that’s in my heart, but also I need to know like what those gifts are that are in my hands. So I could beyond the dancing. So, you know, I can have other revenue streams. And even when I get out into the real world, I didn’t want to be in a situation where I had to dance or I had to go take a job, a dance job that I didn’t want to do to eat, you know?

And so the opportunity came when, when I got off my crutches, I had an op somebody, you know, realize I was a dance major and offer. They said they had a friend who’s doing some work with the local school district and they wanted to know if I’d be interested in teaching, like that’s how it happened.

And so, yeah, when it came to mentoring, that was later on, I would say, as I started investing in coaching. That was very intentional. It still is very intentional, but as far as how it started, it was just like very internal type of thing. Just kind of finding my way as I was going.

Kathy: Awesome. Well, thanks for sharing that.

And let’s hear your story, OL, yours is a little more varied. Shall we say I’ve done some reading and it’s fascinating.

OL: So, yeah. So while we’re, I love hearing Sway’s story every time I hear it , because it just reminds me just cause I was there. Yeah. Yeah. It was amazing. So just to see her growth and just over the time, but yeah, so, you know, for many years I wanted to do music. Pretty much all through high school and that was really my focus and my aim and my drive.

And so I pursued that.

Kathy: Do you play an instrument or singing?

OL: Performance aspect, but I also wanted to do a lot of writing and producing. And so and, and, and then even move that over into media, television, movies, et cetera. And so I thought I wanted to do that for quite a while and I pursued it. As sort of my, my backup, I thought would be broadcast journalism.

I thought, you know, it’d be great to do the news, as they say. And so I pursued that even, even in school and being originally from Chicago, there was a school that was really strong in music production as well as journalism. It was called Columbia, not Columbia like New York, but Columbia, Chicago.

So I pursued that and that was prior to me moving to Texas. And so long story short. I moved to Texas. I pretty much niched it down and pinpointed it down mostly to music. And so that was my pursuit and ended up getting assigned to an independent record company that was ran by some people who at one point worked for Warner Brothers.

And so it was myself and about three other artists and they were going to take us, cultivate us, shop us around. And then we were going to, you know, go to the majors as it, as it were. So I signed that record deal. And that was interesting. And so I ended up actually becoming an employee of the same record company because the money got tight.

And so doing that, living in an efficiency apartment and working there and I had a lot of fits and starts as often happens in the music business. Almost make it, almost make it, ..Almost make it, didn’t make it. Almost make it, almost make it, almost make it, didn’t make it. And so it was a lot of that. And so just the sort of mountain high, valley, low tumult of that really began to wear on me. Fast forward, I turned 30 and I said, you know what?

This is looking really crazy. I am pursuing music with reckless abandon. I am financially unfit, unstable inconsistent, and I’m 30. And I decided to forego school because I was almost this close. Almost make it, .Almost make it almost make it didn’t make it. And so, you know, after so many years of that, you kind of have a come to Jesus moment, as they say, and it’s like, all right, I’ve got to pivot here.

You know, I’m getting older and, you know, with an industry that’s so driven by youth, I had to really take honest account of that, particularly when you’re talking about, you know contemporary and urban music. So that being said, I, the, well, the, one of the persons that managed the label has some connections in the radio industry and they said, you know what?

You’ve got a great personality, you’d be a great sales person. I have a friend who’s a sales manager at CBS, over all of their radio stations, their whole cluster. And I think you’d be great. And so made a phone call, got an interview, got the job. All of a suddenly I’m wearing shorts and ties every day suits every day, which by the way, I had next to none of that in my wardrobe

and so I am now in this a hundred percent commission job. And this starts, this is sort of around 2008. So I think we all know what life was like in 2008 economically speaking. And so that being said I worked there for a year. Meanwhile, Sway and I are engaged. The market goes soft. I’m now back in my draw because when you work a hundred percent commission, you sort of like have to work against the draw.

Well, I was already three months behind and I really wasn’t booking any clients. So I had to make a decision, either sell something or leave. And I left because it was very, very difficult to sort of fast forward here. There was a bridge and opportunity for me to go into the banking industry. And this came through a mutual friend of,

my wife and I, one day we’re at a birthday party for a mentee of Sway’s and there’s this mutual friend of ours who is high up in the banking industry was there. Cause we sort of all kind of knew each other. And she said to me, she said, you know what? I think you’d be really good in banking. And I thought, me like, that’s a big change.

And so I thought, nah, no, no thank you. But I don’t really see it. She’s like, no seriously. And so I said, okay, long story short, I got the interview, got the job. And this is now 2009 or going into 2009. And I started off entry level, worked my way up, got my licenses. Got into wealth management, got into business banking and I am now off to the races and I’m working with peers of mine at this point, colleagues who are many of them MBAs and I’m learning the industry.

And there was one senior gentlemen who came from Merrill Lynch way back in the day. And he sort of took me under his wing and he’s seen the economy go through all kinds of stuff from the eighties. And so he’s sort of coaching me during work hours and I’m learning a lot winning started winning awards, fast-forward Sway and I get married, a year into our marriage.

Cause the bank I worked for was based out of Spain. I won an award for us to go to Spain. And we’re there now top producer, top producer from out of, yeah, actually out of all of it, which included Latin America, Europe and the U S. And so all of a sudden, the person who wasn’t a numbers guy becomes a numbers guy.

And so it was just very interesting. Yeah.

Kathy: Oh my goodness. How do you, how do you explain that kind of unaware part of yourself that was just waiting for an opportunity?

OL: Yeah, I I dunno, I think when, when life sort of especially as entrepreneurs, when we life sort of puts us in a position where we are, you know, our back is against the wall, oftentimes opportunities present themselves.

That seems so unthinkable, like for maybe our background experience or our skillset. And so saying yes, Gave me an opportunity to just jump in and learn. And when I jumped in, I was intense by the way. I read every financial book you could possibly imagine. I talked to people who were in the financial industry, people who were senior to me, and I’ve just spent a lot of time sponging and soaking up.

And so when I left from the last bank I worked for and I say left, but I actually was let go from the last bank I worked for. It was pretty sudden now, Texas is what they call an at-will state. So your first 90 days is probation and they can let you go anytime within that 90 day period with pretty much no elaborate explanation. On my 90th day, I ended up getting, let go for actually over-performing for doing too well without going into the

Sway: yeah.

Yeah. Well, you had explained to you where you were when you were recruited . I was recruited from the other

OL: banks, one bank to go to a, another bank. And when I got recruited to go to this bank, they were sort of, I’m recruiting me for a year. Courting me, should say for a year. And they they called me and said, Hey, we have an opportunity.

We know where you live. Do you still live at this address based on what you shared with us last time? And I said, yeah, they said, we can shorten your drive from basically 45 minutes in the morning and two hours in the evening to 10 minutes, one way. And so it was an opportunity for me to move up, to move management and banking is one of those business models, industries.

You kind of move around it. I get there. They interviewed me for a particular job, which actually ended up being my boss’s job. I got hired before my boss, and then my boss got hired after me. And then the guy who hired my boss and me told my boss, and he interviewed me for my bosses job, which put a target on my back.

And so from that, from there my focus was really to grow our business sector. So I worked a lot with hospitals, physicians, medical professionals, et cetera, and ended up getting this meeting with this very large hospital in North Texas. Come to find out Capital Markets was courting them. And I’m going through all this because this gets a little boring.

But bottom line is I got the, I got the interview or got the money. I was told that they were wanting for over a year and that was towed, the cease and desist. And then all of a sudden, the pats on the back, like you’re doing great. The next Monday I was told that was gonna be my last day and that thrust me into entrepreneurship.

Kathy: Okay,

go ahead. I’m sorry.

Now, say that

OL: again.

That’s it into what I do now, which is really consulting for real estate and debt restructure.

Kathy: All right. So you took what you do well, and you said, I’ll go do this on my own. Awesome. So fast forward to currently you guys do Marriepreneur Life? Yes.

Sway: Manure. Yes. You have

Kathy: a website, yes.

And a wonderful Instagram account. Tell us how you came about launching this topic.

Sway: Well I would say when we, when he left the bank and he started his own company and I was already running my business at the staffing firm, as well as the consultancy. I did start another business after that. Cause a lot of the people I was staffing, they would end up needing jobs or like wanting they needed to start their own business.

And I just ended up helping them do that. So that’s how the consultancy side, my, some of my clients and some of his clients would actually come to us individually and ask us if we would help them and their spouses, once they realized that they were needing help and we were like, we don’t do that. I don’t even know what you, what you’re looking for.

But one in particular, one friend, a couple, they were very persistent and just like for a good year, they would ask me yea, I can no, no, no. Finally we told them. We say, well maybe, maybe we’re onto something, maybe, maybe we’re overlooking something. Cause they would, people would just keep asking us for, for insight and for skills with, with, with working together with the spouse.

But not only that, but just really putting systems together and building a, you know, a legacy of family, legacy of business legacy together. And so. We were just working on our own systems for our own selves, because after he came home from the bank, I said, well, we need to have something in place. So we have, you know, accountability.

And so I just started creating different types of ways for us to do that. So I wouldn’t feel like, he wouldn’t feel like either that I was nagging wife. And so I thought it was just, you know, I thought, okay, the systems that we’re putting in place is just for us, not realizing that it was really for others to give those to others.

I didn’t know other people would need that. So that’s how we started working with couples. We just told that initial couple that we would only do work with them and that’s it. And we did a VIP day and walked them through a whole strategy for the year and all the different ideas that they were working on.

They had two young children at the time and they were homeschooling. And then the wife is a CPA and their husband is a church planner. And so it was just a lot of different things going on and they just needed systems. They needed strategy and they were low on energy and they needed clarity. So. We worked with them.

And that was that. And they were so appreciative and they started telling their friends. And so here we are today about what eight ish, nine years later. And we actually have put, you know, the, the systems and packaged them. So now we can do it in a, in a more official, in a thorough way to help other married entrepreneurs.

Kathy: Yeah. Gotcha. I was listening to one of your podcasts. I don’t remember how far back it goes, but I think y’all were at a conference and had there was a panel of other married entrepreneurs and you had wanted to be guests, maybe. I’m not sure if I’m getting this story straight or not, but There was a couple, I think maybe when you asked about being on the panel, you were turned away because the couple that had done it the year before had, since gotten divorced?

Sway: Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, a panel for married entrepreneur. This is a business conference and they did have a panel, but no one was married. Like they were, they were divorced. They were talking about how they work as partners, like just as business partners versus like married entrepreneurs.

Another couple was like married. I think they were, they were engaged and other couple, they were celebrities too, so that, you know, I understand that why they do that. But yeah, that was just insightful to say the least like I’m like you I’m.

Kathy: Yeah. I’m so grateful for the work that you guys do, because I just, I think we hear too much in society or in the business world that you, you have to sacrifice everything to have a successful business, and you guys are perfect examples and you know of, you can have a wonderful marriage and a very successful business, and it’s not one or the other. I would love to hear about as you’ve worked with different couples, what are some common challenges that couples, whether one or both are entrepreneurs,

and I get asked a lot of times, what is an entrepreneur couple? Well, if one person is an entrepreneur, the whole family is right. So it’s either one or both. Yeah.

OL: Yeah. I was just going to say, and sweetheart please go ahead. But yeah, if, if. If one of them is an entrepreneur. What we mean by that is the family is impacted in a direct way by that entrepreneurship.

Sway: Yeah, absolutely. So we’ve coined three types of Marriedpreneurs, we’d like to call them. And so there’s a spousal preneur where one spouse is working a nine to five while the other is operating the business. And there’s an indie preneur where they are building individual separate businesses and in then couple preneurs where they’re building a business together, and we have found that there are couples who are either in one of those types, but they’re wanting to transition or they are in multiple of those types.

And they’re still wanting to transition to either doing it full time or just working to get like getting their momentum going. And so I would say that’s one of the things, one of the main areas couples come to us about is just that transition. Like how to uplevel how to gain momentum, how to gain traction, what type of systems need to have in place?

What do they need to be doing? They have this big vision in their heart, and they’re not really sure what to do with it. They’re just like, we, we just want to do this, but we keep saying one day, one day, one day, but what do we need to do today to actually get to that one day? So I would say that’s one of the common denominators for the couples who approach us or ask for, for our help, would you say?

Yeah,

OL: yeah, I would just add to that, you know, so in those sort of classifications or in those categories. And I’ll just mention one as an example. You know, if, if they are indie preneurs where, you know one is running a business and the other one is running a separate business, they may well meaning want to, you know, support each other and be there for each other.

But one of the, one of the challenges that we found is that it gets to be very difficult because they end up operating like roommates. And so we get down at the dinner table. I was like, Oh, so what happened with your company? Oh, what happened with your company today? Even if they’re, if they get to get to the dinner table.

And so what happens is they end up operating like roommates and sort of like splitting the bills or one person’s business is sort of, you know, generating more revenue than the other person’s business. And so they might be at different levels within business. And so those are some of the common challenges for particularly for that group and this challenge for each of them.

But that one in particular is definitely one that is common. And so systematically we’ve. We found ways because we are that by the way, among we’ve been all three of those specifications by the way. And so we’ve learned these challenges, observed them in those couples that we’ve worked with, but also systematically how to overcome them.

Kathy: So what’s been one of the biggest challenges that you guys have faced as married preneurs, co preneurs.

That’s a

Sway: great question.

OL: My mind goes to one in particular. I remember when we were spousal-preneurs, where I was actually still working at the bank and Sway was really scaling her business and she was on webinars in our home office, all night long. And I had, you know, dealt with what I dealt with on the nine to five.

And, having these sales goals and so forth. And when I came home, I just sort of wanted to, veg out. And so what happened was, you know, I’d be cooking dinner a lot of the nights or spending time reading in the room or what have you. And she would be in the office on the webinars and doing all the training and learning and so forth.

And, and I wanted her to do those things. I, I, I didn’t want her to not do those things, but I just didn’t realize how as spousal preneurs, where one is running the business, it would actually put a strain on our marriage. And I didn’t really know how I fit into that world with her. So I didn’t even know how to support her.

So it just kind of, kind of isolated this and that, and that went on for a period of time. And so we recognize it and, and, and called attention to it.

Kathy: How did you guys end up negotiating that?

OL: I think it was a re-establishment of what’s the priority. Yeah,

Sway: I don’t think it was an overnight thing.

OL: No, it wasn’t. We didn’t arrive at that suddenly.

Sway: Yeah. I think it was you know, talking through that and, and at that same time though, I think I was also transitioning in business and I was starting to test the previous business model. And so that frustration, that rub that you had as well, just the friction of everything, we just have to have a talk, you know and, and work through like, what, what are we building?

You know, what, what are we really building? And we were brand new, like maybe two years into the marriage. I mean, that’s going on? Because then we bought our first house. We had our house built by that time, by our second year of marriage, it was a lot of new changes and just try to get a lot of new stuff.

And although we’ve known each other for so long, I was living in New York and then coming to Dallas after all that time just kinda getting reacclimated. And it was just a lot of things

OL: we know each other in this

context.

Sway: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And then just doing life together, you know and then me getting back into business really in that way.

Cause while I was away dancing, I wasn’t doing, I was still at the business, but I wasn’t like in the day-to-day as much. Cause I hired people out to do that. So I had the business based in Dallas while I was in New York working or training in dance. And so it was just a lot of new stuff. And so all of that had to come to like to the table, we had to just bring it all to them.

Okay. This is what’s working. This is, what’s not working and work and work through that and say, okay, based off of, you know, the decision. you know, that we made to be married, like, what are we wanting to build? What do we want this to look like? And I’m like, this is not looking like what I want it to look like, so we need to change some things.

So first we have to get clear about what we really wanted it to look like versus just saying what we didn’t want.

OL: Yeah. I, I think to sort of find the priority, you have to sort of sort the laundry and we had to just put everything out and just sort it. Okay. What are we working with? What’s here. What’s really important.

Sway: Yeah. You just work through that for sure.

Kathy: Awesome. Have you guys had a mentor at any point for your marriage, a marriage coach or a counselor? or pastor

Sway: Oh, we are big proponents of marriage counsel. We started marriage counseling before we were even engaged. Yup. So we knew we were gonna, like, that was a road that we were going down.

So before we were even officially engaged,

OL: we’re trying to get a head start.

Sway: Listen, we don’t, we don’t want that kind of drama. So we just. wanted to get around as many things as possible? And then once we got engaged, of course, we went through another formal counseling. And then our counselor did a recommendation after she finished our premarital.

She said that we needed to, for her recommendation, for us to get married was that we would do what do you call it? Maintenance counseling

OL: so we had to do that for at least a year after we got married as a recommendation too. Yeah, we

did it for a couple of years. I mean, we would still do it. We just moved. And so we don’t.

Sway: I mean we’re proponents of it. We would do that. So

OL: we were getting tune-ups long after,

Kathy: We do that with our cars, right? Yep. Yeah. Why would we not do that with our relationship? And yet I found, my background’s a marriage and family therapist that so many wait until it is dead on arrival. Like the engine has been driving it without oil for a hundred thousand miles, and then they want to know why their car doesn’t run. Yeah.

You know, so I love, and yet another example of the wisdom you guys have. It’s awesome. You know, last summer, another post I saw that, touched me deeply Sway was after the news of George Floyd’s death and this, it just ignited this long simmering. It had been simmering a long time, I think, in our country to just wake up to how people of color are treated differently.

And you, you did a couple of posts that were so lovely about just talking about how this was impacting. OL, , and how you were supporting him. And going back to my days of marriage therapy training, I could sum it up in a phrase and that is if a couple can have empathy for each other, there is nothing you can’t figure out and your

were just a beautiful example of that. And I would like to hear from you guys what it was like to give and to receive that empathy. Hmm

OL: Hmm, Hmm. Yeah. Wow.

I think there’s it was very comforting to me, for my wife to pursue understanding as to how I could potentially be feeling what those nuances might be and really listen listen, in the sense of, help me understand what I call the HMU help me understand. And so doing that in one sense was very.

Comforting for me, it was very it was just a, really, a really great feeling that I think in some ways confirmed our bond, but also I think it affirmed our bond and even explained it in some ways. So yeah, that’s the short answer, I think for me.

Sway: Yeah. I think for me, I had never thought to ask, me, I would always hear stories about, you know, we have slightly different upbringings as far as just experiences as an exposures exposures.

Yeah. Growing up. So I would, I don’t think, I think this our whole time knowing each other, I never really. Put myself in his shoes for like, he would tell me stories about growing up and in school and just trying to like fight each day and literally like having fight, I’m like, Oh, I’ve never been in a fight.

Like, you know, like what, what is that like, you know, just like, that’s kind of traumatic as a kid, you know? Like how, how are you, you know, all these years later, but then also thinking about him as I just think of him as, as my husband, but not thinking that he, I just didn’t know like where, where he was emotionally.

Like, how were you feeling as a man and then as a black man, like, do you feel different? Like, I don’t know, I’m not in your shoes and I don’t. And I saw, I just, you know, wanted to know, you know, without him trying to put on an air of, Oh, I’m good. You know, I don’t, I didn’t, I just wanted to know. And I wanted him to know that I was asking about him, you know, and not just as my husband, but as a person.

And so For me, it was just really about, you know, digging and realizing how much I needed to dig, you know, just to get him to get past those layers of whatever of expectations, responsibilities, and, you know, previous conversations, how he’s always, you know, responded. So I think it was just really a nice it was a good heart to heart, you know, just to seeing like how, how were you doing?

How was your heart, what is, are you impacted at all? Or do you feel any different or have you ever experienced this at all? Or what, you know, what are your stories? And so I don’t think we’ve ever, we have talked about it cause I know things happen. But not like this, you know what I mean? In the past has been like, Oh, you dealt with that.

Okay. All right. You know but not in this situation. Well, how did it make you feel? You know, how are you doing emotionally? So I just wanted to share that. I guess I forgot that I even shared it publicly, you know, but I wanted to. To share because others may have been dealing with that and maybe had not thought about it at all.

So,

Kathy: yeah. Well, it was very powerful when I watched it and it sounds like just sometimes just creating space for people and letting them know that whatever you’re okay. But you can, you can let your guard down. You can take the mask off. I’m a safe person. And I, I thought it was a beautiful demonstration of, of empathy that probably deepened your relationship a little that’s how marriage long-term goes.

Right. We keep peeling off layers.

Thank you for sharing that.

Sway: Thank you. Thank you for bringing it up.

Kathy: Yeah, I have a couple more questions when you’re, if you were talking with a couple, say a young couple behind you. Younger, y’all are still young, but younger couple, who is thinking of one or both being entrepreneurs, what is some advice you would give them to think about as they consider this

this approach?

OL: Yeah. I think at first, what I would say is to really have a, a marriage focused definition of success,

rather than letting what may seem common or pervasive or. normative even as to the success or what success is, and even how success, quote, unquote, may even be pursued, I would say have a, a value driven centered, focused definition of success that you to set that is not especially, and I’m speaking as a believer, especially that is not dictated from the outside because. The moment I, we, as a married couple, I would say this to them begin pursuing whatever the dictated definition of success is, then our values and our priorities will really be in the background.

And that’s how it was real easy to get the, the tail wagging the dog.

Sway: That’s a good I would say something and we’ll probably right around those saying along those same lines is like the practical part of marriage. I mean, something that we were told before we got married and I would definitely share this piece of wisdom with this couple would be to protect your date nights.

Right. So keep dating because ultimately what that does is it does the same thing you were just talking about is nurturing the marriage, making sure you have time for the marriage, like you create that time and make it a priority that actually speaks. It does, it does things that it actually puts things in order without even having to,

to say certain things like we’re saying, well, no, my marriage isn’t on the back burner or no, I’m not putting everything or everyone else first it’s like, once you do this and you do this on a regular basis and you make it like a staple in your marriage, it actually sets the precedence for everything and everyone else.

Right? Like this is when we have our date nights or our date days or lunches or whatever, maybe everything else has to fall in order around that, you know, maybe kind of messy over there, but this right here, this is our space. So I would definitely say that concerning marriage. And then when it comes to the business piece of that really ties in though too, is just making sure that there are very, you know, clear boundaries, systems in place.

I would definitely recommend that they get plugged into a community. A marriage community as well as a business community. So, you know, both, and that’s the reason why we even started Marriedpreneur Life, because we didn’t have a community with both of them, you know, we would go to marriage. Yeah, I’d go to marriage counseling to get help, but it wouldn’t impact the business.

It wouldn’t teach us how to do business. And then business, they would, you know, say, throw everything into the business and then your marriage will be there after. We were like, that’s not healthy either. So you know, we will recommend that they, you know, get plugged in. I was like, get plugged into Marriedpreneur Life, , really?

So, or they can just do both ways, marriage, community, and in then business community, because both of those together, it would really help accelerate where they’re going at the same time, protecting what’s most important.

Kathy: Okay. So good. You guys, this is wonderful. And if people want information about your program and what you offer, what’s the best way for them to reach you?

Sway: Oh sure. marriedpreneurlife.com . That’s a great place to start. We have some great resources there, everything from the podcast, which is like a weekly workshop in and of itself. We have it set up now. Too, we have some training download from marriedpreneur checklist, a free download there. We have an assessment call for marriedpreneurs to set that up.

That’s an option too. And we have a marriedpreneur map, a marketing map. Like there’s lots of good stuff right there at marriedpreneurlife.com.

Kathy: Perfect. And I will spell that out and put it in the show notes. Anything else at all, that’s on your heart today, before we go, I want to give you a chance to say any final words.

OL: Yeah, I, I would just reiterate what I said. A few moments ago and that would be, you know, sit down, define success for your family and don’t let that be defined by the definition or by the, by the values of others.

Sway: Yeah. I echo that. That’s real. Just be very clear about the core and everything else will, will find its way to where it needs to be.

But as long as you all are protecting their marriage and making sure that’s priority as you’re building. And then, you know, there’s a saying that, you know, to, to balance like you’re to balance marriage and business or just life, but I don’t really espouse to that belief of balance when it comes to life, because it’s more like a juggling act at times.

And sometimes we, we drop some balls and, you know, you pick them up and sometimes things slip through the cracks cracks, but it just depends on the season that you’re in. I think it’s important to be very. Be aware of the season that you’re in. ..Some seasons, you know, the marriages extremely strong and solid, and you can afford to go in a little bit harder when it comes to the business.

And that’s fine as long as you all have that arrangement, that agreement, but there are other seasons when you need to go all in on your marriage, you know, and the business is going to have to do what it’s going to have to do. You know, you have hopefully that’s the reason that we also are very big proponents of having systems in place.

So it can, it can, it can be most efficient. And so I think it’s important to realize pursuing this like perfect balance of life with marriage and business. I think that’s like a false place. It doesn’t really exist when you really think about it. And so just being, being present where you are now is, is most important being present in what you’re to be focused in on now is most important.

And making sure that regardless of what that season is that you two are on the same page regardless and work to get there. I love that work to get there. Wait,

Kathy: if we, we do a lot of work, but there’s a lot of fun in the process and you guys are certainly models of that. And by all means, follow them on Instagram, @marriedpreneurlife .

So I want to thank you guys so much for your time today. It is wonderful to see you and I wish you all the best and I’m gonna keep following you.

Sway: Thank you so much for having us. It’s been our pleasure.

037 Buckleys

Kathy: Hey everyone. I am joined today by O L & Sway Buckley, and it is my great honor to have them today. How are you guys?

Sway: We’re wonderful!

How are you

OL: Doing very well, glad to be here? How are you?

Kathy: Good. I am doing well. Thank you. And third time’s a charm. We’ve had to reschedule a time or two, and I just thank you guys for hanging in there with me.

So welcome.

Sway: Thank you for having us.

Kathy: Tell us a little bit about where you guys are. I follow you on Instagram and I can’t quite figure out where you are.

Sway: We are in New Jersey, North Northern the Northern part of New Jersey right outside of Hey, New York city. Yeah, literally on the other side of the Hudson.

Kathy: Yes. Okay. Did you move somewhere this year? Because I remember a story about getting a bunch of stuff out of storage.

OL: So yeah. So a few years back we, we moved from Texas after having been there about 19 years,

Sway: and then those things were saying you just left it there! So she’s like, okay,

that was a prompt, right. So you can know what happened. Like how do we, what was that you were seeing is what the question was about? I get it. And so that time when we moved from Texas the things that we left there were left in moving pods. And so recently, I guess that was last year. We have my family specifically my mom’s side, we have property down in in South Carolina.

And so instead of leaving our things in the pods, now that she has, she put a house on the land. And so we just brought our things to the other property in South Carolina. So that’s what you were seeing.

Kathy: Gotcha. I have been wondering, okay. Mystery solved.

I want to start off with a couple of fun ways just to let people get to know you a little bit. If your marriage was a team sport, what would it be?

OL: Yeah, that is a great question. And I kinda, I feel like it would be two different ones. On one hand, I feel like we are bobsledding

Sway: Really? We’re bobsledding

in our marriage?

OL: Sometimes I’m pushing and she’s steering sort of the nose and sometimes I’m steering the nose. She’s pushed me. It just depends, but then I also think it’s probably a little bit of curling or is that the word curling?

Kathy: Oh, that’s funny. We all watch it in the Olympics, but it’s like, what is this?

Sway: The things you learn about your marriage on a podcast interview? I tell you

I don’t know. I would say basketball, maybe. Just the different roles. I mean, we will play different roles in, in, in each of us will we’ll do it. See, I probably shouldn’t do basketball because I don’t even know all the different players, but the goal is to get the ball inside of the basket. And so we are throwing the ball back and forth, rebounding.

And in doing, what do you call them? Don’t come in scoring. dunking

Kathy: there you go. And just so you know, I think dancing is a sport.

Sway: Yes, it is. It is. It absolutely

OL: is a lot of coordination involved there, for sure.

Kathy: Yeah. For those of you listening, you just have to follow married preneur life on Instagram because they post the most adorable.

posts And they are the best dancers ever.

I’m wanting. OL to give my husband some lessons. So there you go. Yeah. No pressure, no pressure. What is the craziest or most fun thing you guys have ever done on a date? So far?

Sway: The craziest and most fun thing we’ve done on a date for, I don’t know if we have the same answers, I would say this is crazy.

This is before we got married crazy. And I mean, it was crazy if we were married too, but young and naive when we first met not first, first, but pretty new. He was taking me to different. He was, well, I don’t know. Well, he was taking me to different places. I was new to Texas, going there for college for undergrad.

And so he was just like showing me the vision for what he saw for our life. Like, I want to sh I want to take her to this exclusive neighborhood with these houses, these huge homes who were, you know, just being, you know, built and some of them model homes or, you know, some are completed, some aren’t.

And so it was in a very it was a, you know, gated community. And so he, we drove this, I don’t know, like the area, and now I’m just like looking like, Oh, these are nice. So I’m not really thinking anything. Other than, okay, this is cool. But then he’s like, let me show you something. So he parked the car, we get out the car and it’s dark outside.

So it’s nighttime, it’s dark. And so, yeah,

OL: let me say this it’s after business hours, that’s, that’s, that’s an important part.

Kathy: So

Sway: go, we go these houses. So we ended up trespassing on a date and I felt like, I don’t know if we should be like, this is not our house. Like, this is trust me. And I’m just like, okay.

I don’t know. And so, you know, after the back hindsight, I was, you know, we talked about, I think you told your mom and then she was like, you guys should have never, what are you doing? The cops could come, and you’re trespassing

and I was like, I didn’t even know. You know? So that was kind of crazy not to look back on it. As a date, I mean, young and naive and trying to show me, take me, give me the role. Yeah,

OL: that that’s, that’s definitely a good one. I would say it would have happened during our, it was on our honeymoon. We were in Mexico and we were, she wanted us to sort of go off the resort and sorta just make our way into town.

Sway: I want to be with the people.

OL: And so we there’s a, there’s a cargo van. I don’t, I don’t know how we got this cargo van was a cargo van. You know, one of the ones with no

Sway: windows. No, you’d have to back up at the airport. When we were leaving, when we were arriving, we were leaving the airport, they have all these different people there that no, they

OL: bombard you for like the sit in on the session here, the presentation

Sway: and the timeshare

and so I signed it. Doesn’t we don’t live here. We’re not going to buy anything right now. We’re just barely. Yeah. That’s what it was a massage and a meal. And so we were like, okay, we’ll do it.that You know, we didn’t, we were so young naive & we were like, OK, that sounds like fun and so that’s when we went down, then they picked us up in a unmarked yeah.

OL: In a, in a industrial cargo van. And so we go, they couldn’t come onto the property. That should have been red flag. Number one, you have to come off the property onto the street. So I didn’t know up from down at this point. So we go off the property, go into the street, we get into the cargo van. There’s like two other guys in there.

And then I realized. I realized I forgot

Sway: to bring the paper that he gave us the paper paper.

OL: And so the guy says, Oh,

Sway: The guy says, Oh,

OL: you can leave your wife. He said, she can stay. And we’ll be here when you get back,

we’re looking at each other and she’s like, you better not leave.We’ve been married less than 24 hours.It’s funny if you ever seen those like those videos of people skydiving and like two people do it together and they’ll hold hands simultaneously. We held hands and jumped out of the van simultaneously.

Sway: Good, but, you know, they were there when we did come back and they were still waiting there and it was actually a great trip.

Like they fed us well, we listened to the presentation, but we just told the lady who just got married yesterday. So we’re not going to buy property

if we haven’t even purchased our first home together. So she’s like, okay, I’ll go. But just next time, make sure you let people know that you’re not. I’m like, okay, you didn’t ask all that. I would’ve told them, but just wanted to have us come. So they, we did that full day of massages and ended up being in a commercial.

Like for the resort, it was great. They said, Hey can

OL: can can we film you guys and put put you guys in. I was like, sure. They gave us extra food. Let us stay longer. Yeah, but our crazy days involved a little bit of danger.

Sway: Just a little bit. Yeah.

Kathy: I had a feeling. That’s why I asked that question. I haven’t asked that

I don’t think of anybody else that you guys were kind of there on the edge. And OL was glad that that wasn’t one of the times that you left her there and said, just trust me.

Sway: I would not

Kathy: Smart man smart, man. What is a book or a person that has affirmed or influenced the person you are today?

OL: Yes. So many ways to answer that. Go ahead.

Sway: I know, I would say there’s a lot of ways to answer that for me as well too, but one of the recent books. I’ve read it. I’ve read some of his books years ago, but then as of recent revisiting John Maxwell’s, book, , and reading about just the importance of how can you talking about leadership, but just how you treat people and that being a big part of, of the process of being a good leader, like really, really caring for people in order for you to, to have make deposits and then make withdrawals in that relationship.

So definitely John Maxwell is up there for me.

OL: Yeah. That’s that’s, I’m trying to pick, right. Cause I’ve been sort of checked out by several books, but if I had to choose one of them

Kathy: and you’ve got your books just line the wall behind you. So I’m sure it’s hard to pick one.

OL: There, there is one that I’ve read most recently and it’s called Gentle and Lowly.

And it’s by an author, Dane Ortlund and it’s when Christ said, you know that, that I am gentle and lowly. And so it’s really dealing with meekness and really just, just, just growing in and maturing in the love of God has been a, it’s been a great book.

Kathy: Very good. I’ll try to hunt down those titles and put those in the show notes.

So I want to hear a little bit about y’all’s backstory before we get to what you’re doing today, but I picked up through just, you know, following you guys on Instagram that you dated a very long time, tell us how you met and what, what that long courtship was about.

Sway: Yeah. Well, we met at church actually.

He was a janitor for the church at the church, and I did not know, I don’t even, he says I walked on his wet floors. I don’t even remember doing that.

OL: She ignored the yellow caution with fluorescein, so

Sway: you can ignore it. I just had to get up the stairs and the floor was wet in front of the stairs. So I still had to get to my, I had to get to the stairs, you know?

So

OL: mop the floors, somebody, just somebody just sashayed across it!

Sway: Would you have around it to get up the stairs? Like the floor was wet. So, and then I asked him a question that was actually having a pastoral meeting and to see if the past was the pastor’s office was upstairs. And so I just asked him if, you know, if the pastor was in and I, you told me yes.

And I went up the stairs. I didn’t think anything of it.

OL: So it was on a Monday. And so most churches don’t have a lot of people there on Mondays, at least not Monday morning. So I, based on what I knew, I knew that pretty much any car in the parking lot that was not mine or a few of the staff members had to have been hers.

So I went out and that’s when I saw her her little red Toyota and I said, taken, she drives a red Toyota.

Sway: It was I guess you would call it, what do you call it? You were tracking me after that.

OL: Yeah. So like, if you ask her, she would say, it’s stalking. If you ask me, I would say it’s gathering Intel

Kathy: gathering Intel.

Woo. So how long did you gather Intel, before you asked her out.

Sway: I don’t even know how long it was, because I don’t remember him. I don’t remember. I remember the pastors meet, like, meeting with that pastor because he was new at that time. And I was, I’m working on doing some things with the youth. So that’s why I remember that meeting, but he said that’s when he was there.

So I vaguely remember somebody being there. So I don’t even know time-wise how long it took for him to approach me. But I will tell you this, when he did approach me, it took a year for him to get my number. And it was just a lot of different things. And we just hadn’t seen each other a lot or, you know, when we did see each other, it was a huge church.

So by the time we run into each other over that year, that I finally, when he asked me again about it, I gave it to him and then, so that everything went really slow in that regard. I just wanted to make sure he wasn’t some crazy guy. So if he can be this patient okay. And I actually spoke with my father too, and I’d asked him, I said, this guy asked me for my number.

And he said, well, watch him, you know, watch him for a while. And I was like, I’ve watched him for a few months. And he was like, what are you thinking? And I was like, he seems okay. He’s like, okay, well give me your numbers. I was like, Oh, okay. That’s what I was supposed to do. Okay. So, and that was really like my green light just to do that next step.

But yeah, so I think it was that first year. And then the remaining nine years after that,

OL: you know, it’s so funny. Just before. I don’t, I don’t know how long it was prior to us getting here to, prior to me proposing, but I just, we, we laugh about it today. Her, her mom used to say, Hey, what’s going on with that Otis guy?

He just keeps hangin around right? Yeah.

I’ve just been hanging around for like nine years.

Sway: Oh

yeah. I think we were just really young. And so I think that plays a big part of it, for sure. I was like 19 when we met. So. And I was fresh out of high school. Well, 18, 19 going into my sophomore year of college. So, you know, it was just like, we weren’t, I don’t think we weren’t mature at that point, you know, enough to have a sustain of a marriage that will be sustained, like, but by our choosing.

So I think that was, it was just the timing of it. And then I went off to explore more of the world. I mean, my background is in dance, so I came out to New York to do some dancing and just live life, you know as a single person, we were still in a relationship, just it a long distance, but it was still like, we’re just going to be, there was nothing for me to wait around for.

I’m like, I’m not going to put my life on hold. I’m just going to keep living and, and we’ll see where this goes. And yeah. And

OL: so, yeah, and I was, I was in the music industry and sort of pursuing that life and, you know, that’s, that’s all consuming and so. You know, between that and just sort of me hanging around.

Sway: Yeah, I love it.

Kathy: Well, and that, you know, that demonstrates some wisdom really, because we were 21 and 22 and we didn’t wait around. We just said, well, let’s go. So yeah, that, to me shows some wisdom in your relationships. So you guys have been married, how long at this point?

Sway: 11 years now. 11

Kathy: years? Yeah. Okay.

Wonderful, perfect years. Right? Right.

OL: So you add it all up. I think we’ve known each other 20 years.

Kathy: That’s amazing. That’s amazing. Well, tell us also a little bit about your backgrounds. I’ve read up a little bit and and you guys, kind of came from different directions and gradually merged as entrepreneurs. So I’d like to hear a little bit about how you got to where you are today.

So whoever wants to start tell us how you, you know, kind of your work background and did you know you were an entrepreneur?

Sway: Yeah, well, for me, I started my first business at the age of 16. It was the tutoring company. I did not even know I was starting a company. I didn’t know what I was doing, but the opportunity presented itself to tutor kids.

And it started with some of my cousins who came to live with my family. And one of my youngest, the youngest cousin, it was three of them who came the youngest one, she was five and she was not reading. And it bothered me. And that, you know, 16, you don’t know what your gifts are. You don’t know that you’re a teacher.

And so I just, took some cards, index cards. And I started making, you know, little words for her, alphabet. And by the end of the week, she was reading from a book and my mom was like, that is not week. Like, yeah. She was like, that’s, that’s something special. And I was like, Oh, I don’t know. Like, I’m just a kid. I’m like, I just knew she needed help.

And I want my cousin to be able to read and she’s five, she should be reading. Like, that’s just what I thought. And so the next thing, I know, my mom told one of her girlfriends about it who had a son around the same age who was having issues reading as well. And so that was my first client. And that’s, it just grew from there.

Well, from there, I, when I went off to college, I continued tutoring, but it was more so like autistic children and happened to be all boys. And so I did a lot. And as a dance major, I did a lot of fine and gross motor skills with them, but also phonetics and just basic things with them. I enjoy working with kids.

And so. I did that. And then my sophomore year in high in college, I started, I didn’t even know what it was, but I’ve come to find out later that it was a staffing firm. So it was a staffing company. I started where the school districts partner with the school districts as my clients and as a dance major, they wanted me to meet initially to come and teach.

And of course I was trying to pay for college. And so I said, well, sure. And I could only teach, but so much because I was a full-time student dance major, double minor in business and religion. And so I started teaching and then they asked for more. Now, mind you, I’d never taught before. I just was like, okay, you’re giving me an opportunity to make some money.

That’s all I hear. So I’m going to think, and I’ve worked with enough kids, I can figure it out. It can’t be that hard. And so that’s really what I did as a, started that as a freshman into my freshman year. And then they asked for me to do more hours. And so I was like, I can’t but I didn’t want to say no, cause I’m like, this is helping me pay for tuition.

And so I said, well, can I, can I bring on people like, can I be the in-between and I can refer and bring people under me is what I was thinking. They said sure we just need people. And so I started hiring my friends, you know, I said, Hey, you want to make some money when I get paid, I’ll pay you a portion of this.

So I was able to make money off of them working in more and more people. They started hiring like needing more and more people, not just dancers, but. You know, thespians and visual artists and musicians, and I’m like, I’ll find them, I will find them. And so I was like, I would just go to the art department here at school.

I’m sure there’s some kids who want a job. And so that’s how I started. And that literally paid my way through. I mean, it’s a very expensive process, but actually, I mean, I’d say expensive. Like it, it, it really started bringing in revenue quickly, but it also opened doors for other scholarships. I ended up getting a education scholarship, a business scholarship, cause I had the business.

And then I did the religion and when I was answering phones initially and being in the religion department I was able to hear about different scholarship opportunities. Cause it was, you know, I was out of state and it was a private institution. So it was like all these fees on top of everything.

And then I was an RA, so I was just finding ways to pay for school. And so I’m thinking this is just another way. So with the religion department, I find out that there’s a scholarship. If you’re, if you minor in religion, they’ll pay half your tuition. I was like, What do I need to do to minor? Just what do I need to do?

Classes all three extra classes, sign me up. Okay. I’m a religion minor, you know, half my tuition. And then for business, I was getting scholarships, you know, because now I had this business. So bank of America was giving money. All these different donors. I was just, you know, applying for app, you know, for, for, for money.

Cause I’m like, I need to figure it out. And then the education department, because I had my business once again, working with school districts, then as my partners as my clients and none of the education majors were going after the scholarship during this time. But I, you know, was pretty persistent with going after it.

And so because of the company that I was running, the education department granted me like a full ride, even on top of the money, you know, they pay for everything. So there was some retroactive. Yeah, they, yeah. They were like, whatever you want. Wow. Yeah. So I think I had for that business, I still run it today and literally it was open door to get everything, you know, paid for my tuition.

And so after that I said, well, I’m just going to keep this job because this is, and then, you know, really quickly it brought on started earning, you know, multiple six figures and very early in on just hiring people. And I just felt like this is an opportunity to have a revenue stream and still, you know, dance, do what I love to do.

So that’s how that was the beginning of my entrepreneurial journey.

Kathy: And did you call yourself an entrepreneur at that point? Or were you, it sounds like you were just like, I need money. This is an opportunity you didn’t overthink yet.

Sway: No, I didn’t overthink it at all. I knew I wanted to do business, which is why I minored in business from jump street.

I just didn’t know what that was going to look like. And I just didn’t know. I knew it was a business. I just didn’t know. I didn’t even know what to call it. I’m like, I don’t even know what this is that I’m doing, but it’s paying the bills. I was like, you know, and so that eventually a couple of years into it, I think maybe my junior year I started thinking, well, is this a, is it a staffing firm?

Like, what is this that I’m doing? I didn’t even know. Like, what did it like, you know, I just didn’t know. And so I said, well, I think it’s a staffing firm. And then I said, well, I think, but it’s not a staffing. Cause I was, I would think like corporate America, you know, staffing in that regard. But I was like, this is not that this is something different.

I don’t even know. I’ve never seen this, what I’m doing. So I’m just gonna keep doing it and figure out what to call it. So when people would ask me what I did, I just said, I’m a dancer because I didn’t know how to explain what I did. I was just like, Oh, I dance or I teach dance, but I never explained, Oh, I run a creative art staffing firm so that, you know, a couple of years into it, I said, I think this is like a creative art staffing firm?

Like, cause at first I was like, as a dance staffing and I was like, well, it’s creative arts. But then it turned into me hiring like coders and all these other types of people that did great things for the kids as well too. So I just call it a creative arts staffing firm, to this day. That’s what it’s called.

That’s my story.

Kathy: And ed, you’re still running that. Right?

Sway: Right. It just ebbs and flows. I don’t, I’ve never done like one. I’m not gonna say never when I graduated, that’s when I started doing marketing, like grassroots marketing, knocking on doors. Boys and girls clubs. Cause I moved from that area to another city and I’m like, I have to start over, but I was like, I know what to do.

I’ve been doing it. And then I got other contracts with some pretty pretty well-funded organizations. When I started from the beginning with me teaching and then I just started bringing on people again and rebuilt it. And, but that’s the marketing that I’ve done. I haven’t done anything else in, in that sense.

So I say that to say, so when opportunities come nowadays, I’m just a pretty well oiled machine and I that’s, you know what I do in the background.

Kathy: Gotcha. Okay. And did you have a mentor, Sway, that. Maybe you didn’t even consider them a mentor at the time, but somebody in your family or a family friend or someone that also had their own business that even gave you the idea that you could do this, or was this just an internal,

Oh, it was, this can do this.

Sway: Definitely an internal I, there was a, I kind of had a freak accident. I can talk about that. I had a freak accident, the third day of college and where I was sewing a ballet shoe and I jumped off the bed and the needle broke off inside of my foot, and they thought they were going to, amputate, so long story short, all gosh, after, as my foot is swelling up, like a couple of weeks into it because nobody would touch it because the main doctor in the neighborhood said, don’t leave, like leave it in for six months or six weeks rather, and then come back.

And anyway so by the time I finally found his counterpart is equal, they were like, yeah, this needs to come out right away. So I was on crutches at first full semester. And that’s when, and I still had to go to my dance classes and watch them dance and journal and stuff. So I just, it just brought me to my knees really.

I say, okay, God, well, what is it that you have for me to do? I know this is something that’s in my heart, but also I need to know like what those gifts are that are in my hands. So I could beyond the dancing. So, you know, I can have other revenue streams. And even when I get out into the real world, I didn’t want to be in a situation where I had to dance or I had to go take a job, a dance job that I didn’t want to do to eat, you know?

And so the opportunity came when, when I got off my crutches, I had an op somebody, you know, realize I was a dance major and offer. They said they had a friend who’s doing some work with the local school district and they wanted to know if I’d be interested in teaching, like that’s how it happened.

And so, yeah, when it came to mentoring, that was later on, I would say, as I started investing in coaching. That was very intentional. It still is very intentional, but as far as how it started, it was just like very internal type of thing. Just kind of finding my way as I was going.

Kathy: Awesome. Well, thanks for sharing that.

And let’s hear your story, OL, yours is a little more varied. Shall we say I’ve done some reading and it’s fascinating.

OL: So, yeah. So while we’re, I love hearing Sway’s story every time I hear it , because it just reminds me just cause I was there. Yeah. Yeah. It was amazing. So just to see her growth and just over the time, but yeah, so, you know, for many years I wanted to do music. Pretty much all through high school and that was really my focus and my aim and my drive.

And so I pursued that.

Kathy: Do you play an instrument or singing?

OL: Performance aspect, but I also wanted to do a lot of writing and producing. And so and, and, and then even move that over into media, television, movies, et cetera. And so I thought I wanted to do that for quite a while and I pursued it. As sort of my, my backup, I thought would be broadcast journalism.

I thought, you know, it’d be great to do the news, as they say. And so I pursued that even, even in school and being originally from Chicago, there was a school that was really strong in music production as well as journalism. It was called Columbia, not Columbia like New York, but Columbia, Chicago.

So I pursued that and that was prior to me moving to Texas. And so long story short. I moved to Texas. I pretty much niched it down and pinpointed it down mostly to music. And so that was my pursuit and ended up getting assigned to an independent record company that was ran by some people who at one point worked for Warner Brothers.

And so it was myself and about three other artists and they were going to take us, cultivate us, shop us around. And then we were going to, you know, go to the majors as it, as it were. So I signed that record deal. And that was interesting. And so I ended up actually becoming an employee of the same record company because the money got tight.

And so doing that, living in an efficiency apartment and working there and I had a lot of fits and starts as often happens in the music business. Almost make it, almost make it, ..Almost make it, didn’t make it. Almost make it, almost make it, almost make it, didn’t make it. And so it was a lot of that. And so just the sort of mountain high, valley, low tumult of that really began to wear on me. Fast forward, I turned 30 and I said, you know what?

This is looking really crazy. I am pursuing music with reckless abandon. I am financially unfit, unstable inconsistent, and I’m 30. And I decided to forego school because I was almost this close. Almost make it, .Almost make it almost make it didn’t make it. And so, you know, after so many years of that, you kind of have a come to Jesus moment, as they say, and it’s like, all right, I’ve got to pivot here.

You know, I’m getting older and, you know, with an industry that’s so driven by youth, I had to really take honest account of that, particularly when you’re talking about, you know contemporary and urban music. So that being said, I, the, well, the, one of the persons that managed the label has some connections in the radio industry and they said, you know what?

You’ve got a great personality, you’d be a great sales person. I have a friend who’s a sales manager at CBS, over all of their radio stations, their whole cluster. And I think you’d be great. And so made a phone call, got an interview, got the job. All of a suddenly I’m wearing shorts and ties every day suits every day, which by the way, I had next to none of that in my wardrobe

and so I am now in this a hundred percent commission job. And this starts, this is sort of around 2008. So I think we all know what life was like in 2008 economically speaking. And so that being said I worked there for a year. Meanwhile, Sway and I are engaged. The market goes soft. I’m now back in my draw because when you work a hundred percent commission, you sort of like have to work against the draw.

Well, I was already three months behind and I really wasn’t booking any clients. So I had to make a decision, either sell something or leave. And I left because it was very, very difficult to sort of fast forward here. There was a bridge and opportunity for me to go into the banking industry. And this came through a mutual friend of,

my wife and I, one day we’re at a birthday party for a mentee of Sway’s and there’s this mutual friend of ours who is high up in the banking industry was there. Cause we sort of all kind of knew each other. And she said to me, she said, you know what? I think you’d be really good in banking. And I thought, me like, that’s a big change.

And so I thought, nah, no, no thank you. But I don’t really see it. She’s like, no seriously. And so I said, okay, long story short, I got the interview, got the job. And this is now 2009 or going into 2009. And I started off entry level, worked my way up, got my licenses. Got into wealth management, got into business banking and I am now off to the races and I’m working with peers of mine at this point, colleagues who are many of them MBAs and I’m learning the industry.

And there was one senior gentlemen who came from Merrill Lynch way back in the day. And he sort of took me under his wing and he’s seen the economy go through all kinds of stuff from the eighties. And so he’s sort of coaching me during work hours and I’m learning a lot winning started winning awards, fast-forward Sway and I get married, a year into our marriage.

Cause the bank I worked for was based out of Spain. I won an award for us to go to Spain. And we’re there now top producer, top producer from out of, yeah, actually out of all of it, which included Latin America, Europe and the U S. And so all of a sudden, the person who wasn’t a numbers guy becomes a numbers guy.

And so it was just very interesting. Yeah.

Kathy: Oh my goodness. How do you, how do you explain that kind of unaware part of yourself that was just waiting for an opportunity?

OL: Yeah, I I dunno, I think when, when life sort of especially as entrepreneurs, when we life sort of puts us in a position where we are, you know, our back is against the wall, oftentimes opportunities present themselves.

That seems so unthinkable, like for maybe our background experience or our skillset. And so saying yes, Gave me an opportunity to just jump in and learn. And when I jumped in, I was intense by the way. I read every financial book you could possibly imagine. I talked to people who were in the financial industry, people who were senior to me, and I’ve just spent a lot of time sponging and soaking up.

And so when I left from the last bank I worked for and I say left, but I actually was let go from the last bank I worked for. It was pretty sudden now, Texas is what they call an at-will state. So your first 90 days is probation and they can let you go anytime within that 90 day period with pretty much no elaborate explanation. On my 90th day, I ended up getting, let go for actually over-performing for doing too well without going into the

Sway: yeah.

Yeah. Well, you had explained to you where you were when you were recruited . I was recruited from the other

OL: banks, one bank to go to a, another bank. And when I got recruited to go to this bank, they were sort of, I’m recruiting me for a year. Courting me, should say for a year. And they they called me and said, Hey, we have an opportunity.

We know where you live. Do you still live at this address based on what you shared with us last time? And I said, yeah, they said, we can shorten your drive from basically 45 minutes in the morning and two hours in the evening to 10 minutes, one way. And so it was an opportunity for me to move up, to move management and banking is one of those business models, industries.

You kind of move around it. I get there. They interviewed me for a particular job, which actually ended up being my boss’s job. I got hired before my boss, and then my boss got hired after me. And then the guy who hired my boss and me told my boss, and he interviewed me for my bosses job, which put a target on my back.

And so from that, from there my focus was really to grow our business sector. So I worked a lot with hospitals, physicians, medical professionals, et cetera, and ended up getting this meeting with this very large hospital in North Texas. Come to find out Capital Markets was courting them. And I’m going through all this because this gets a little boring.

But bottom line is I got the, I got the interview or got the money. I was told that they were wanting for over a year and that was towed, the cease and desist. And then all of a sudden, the pats on the back, like you’re doing great. The next Monday I was told that was gonna be my last day and that thrust me into entrepreneurship.

Kathy: Okay,

go ahead. I’m sorry.

Now, say that

OL: again.

That’s it into what I do now, which is really consulting for real estate and debt restructure.

Kathy: All right. So you took what you do well, and you said, I’ll go do this on my own. Awesome. So fast forward to currently you guys do Marriepreneur Life? Yes.

Sway: Manure. Yes. You have

Kathy: a website, yes.

And a wonderful Instagram account. Tell us how you came about launching this topic.

Sway: Well I would say when we, when he left the bank and he started his own company and I was already running my business at the staffing firm, as well as the consultancy. I did start another business after that. Cause a lot of the people I was staffing, they would end up needing jobs or like wanting they needed to start their own business.

And I just ended up helping them do that. So that’s how the consultancy side, my, some of my clients and some of his clients would actually come to us individually and ask us if we would help them and their spouses, once they realized that they were needing help and we were like, we don’t do that. I don’t even know what you, what you’re looking for.

But one in particular, one friend, a couple, they were very persistent and just like for a good year, they would ask me yea, I can no, no, no. Finally we told them. We say, well maybe, maybe we’re onto something, maybe, maybe we’re overlooking something. Cause they would, people would just keep asking us for, for insight and for skills with, with, with working together with the spouse.

But not only that, but just really putting systems together and building a, you know, a legacy of family, legacy of business legacy together. And so. We were just working on our own systems for our own selves, because after he came home from the bank, I said, well, we need to have something in place. So we have, you know, accountability.

And so I just started creating different types of ways for us to do that. So I wouldn’t feel like, he wouldn’t feel like either that I was nagging wife. And so I thought it was just, you know, I thought, okay, the systems that we’re putting in place is just for us, not realizing that it was really for others to give those to others.

I didn’t know other people would need that. So that’s how we started working with couples. We just told that initial couple that we would only do work with them and that’s it. And we did a VIP day and walked them through a whole strategy for the year and all the different ideas that they were working on.

They had two young children at the time and they were homeschooling. And then the wife is a CPA and their husband is a church planner. And so it was just a lot of different things going on and they just needed systems. They needed strategy and they were low on energy and they needed clarity. So. We worked with them.

And that was that. And they were so appreciative and they started telling their friends. And so here we are today about what eight ish, nine years later. And we actually have put, you know, the, the systems and packaged them. So now we can do it in a, in a more official, in a thorough way to help other married entrepreneurs.

Kathy: Yeah. Gotcha. I was listening to one of your podcasts. I don’t remember how far back it goes, but I think y’all were at a conference and had there was a panel of other married entrepreneurs and you had wanted to be guests, maybe. I’m not sure if I’m getting this story straight or not, but There was a couple, I think maybe when you asked about being on the panel, you were turned away because the couple that had done it the year before had, since gotten divorced?

Sway: Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, a panel for married entrepreneur. This is a business conference and they did have a panel, but no one was married. Like they were, they were divorced. They were talking about how they work as partners, like just as business partners versus like married entrepreneurs.

Another couple was like married. I think they were, they were engaged and other couple, they were celebrities too, so that, you know, I understand that why they do that. But yeah, that was just insightful to say the least like I’m like you I’m.

Kathy: Yeah. I’m so grateful for the work that you guys do, because I just, I think we hear too much in society or in the business world that you, you have to sacrifice everything to have a successful business, and you guys are perfect examples and you know of, you can have a wonderful marriage and a very successful business, and it’s not one or the other. I would love to hear about as you’ve worked with different couples, what are some common challenges that couples, whether one or both are entrepreneurs,

and I get asked a lot of times, what is an entrepreneur couple? Well, if one person is an entrepreneur, the whole family is right. So it’s either one or both. Yeah.

OL: Yeah. I was just going to say, and sweetheart please go ahead. But yeah, if, if. If one of them is an entrepreneur. What we mean by that is the family is impacted in a direct way by that entrepreneurship.

Sway: Yeah, absolutely. So we’ve coined three types of Marriedpreneurs, we’d like to call them. And so there’s a spousal preneur where one spouse is working a nine to five while the other is operating the business. And there’s an indie preneur where they are building individual separate businesses and in then couple preneurs where they’re building a business together, and we have found that there are couples who are either in one of those types, but they’re wanting to transition or they are in multiple of those types.

And they’re still wanting to transition to either doing it full time or just working to get like getting their momentum going. And so I would say that’s one of the things, one of the main areas couples come to us about is just that transition. Like how to uplevel how to gain momentum, how to gain traction, what type of systems need to have in place?

What do they need to be doing? They have this big vision in their heart, and they’re not really sure what to do with it. They’re just like, we, we just want to do this, but we keep saying one day, one day, one day, but what do we need to do today to actually get to that one day? So I would say that’s one of the common denominators for the couples who approach us or ask for, for our help, would you say?

Yeah,

OL: yeah, I would just add to that, you know, so in those sort of classifications or in those categories. And I’ll just mention one as an example. You know, if, if they are indie preneurs where, you know one is running a business and the other one is running a separate business, they may well meaning want to, you know, support each other and be there for each other.

But one of the, one of the challenges that we found is that it gets to be very difficult because they end up operating like roommates. And so we get down at the dinner table. I was like, Oh, so what happened with your company? Oh, what happened with your company today? Even if they’re, if they get to get to the dinner table.

And so what happens is they end up operating like roommates and sort of like splitting the bills or one person’s business is sort of, you know, generating more revenue than the other person’s business. And so they might be at different levels within business. And so those are some of the common challenges for particularly for that group and this challenge for each of them.

But that one in particular is definitely one that is common. And so systematically we’ve. We found ways because we are that by the way, among we’ve been all three of those specifications by the way. And so we’ve learned these challenges, observed them in those couples that we’ve worked with, but also systematically how to overcome them.

Kathy: So what’s been one of the biggest challenges that you guys have faced as married preneurs, co preneurs.

That’s a

Sway: great question.

OL: My mind goes to one in particular. I remember when we were spousal-preneurs, where I was actually still working at the bank and Sway was really scaling her business and she was on webinars in our home office, all night long. And I had, you know, dealt with what I dealt with on the nine to five.

And, having these sales goals and so forth. And when I came home, I just sort of wanted to, veg out. And so what happened was, you know, I’d be cooking dinner a lot of the nights or spending time reading in the room or what have you. And she would be in the office on the webinars and doing all the training and learning and so forth.

And, and I wanted her to do those things. I, I, I didn’t want her to not do those things, but I just didn’t realize how as spousal preneurs, where one is running the business, it would actually put a strain on our marriage. And I didn’t really know how I fit into that world with her. So I didn’t even know how to support her.

So it just kind of, kind of isolated this and that, and that went on for a period of time. And so we recognize it and, and, and called attention to it.

Kathy: How did you guys end up negotiating that?

OL: I think it was a re-establishment of what’s the priority. Yeah,

Sway: I don’t think it was an overnight thing.

OL: No, it wasn’t. We didn’t arrive at that suddenly.

Sway: Yeah. I think it was you know, talking through that and, and at that same time though, I think I was also transitioning in business and I was starting to test the previous business model. And so that frustration, that rub that you had as well, just the friction of everything, we just have to have a talk, you know and, and work through like, what, what are we building?

You know, what, what are we really building? And we were brand new, like maybe two years into the marriage. I mean, that’s going on? Because then we bought our first house. We had our house built by that time, by our second year of marriage, it was a lot of new changes and just try to get a lot of new stuff.

And although we’ve known each other for so long, I was living in New York and then coming to Dallas after all that time just kinda getting reacclimated. And it was just a lot of things

OL: we know each other in this

context.

Sway: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And then just doing life together, you know and then me getting back into business really in that way.

Cause while I was away dancing, I wasn’t doing, I was still at the business, but I wasn’t like in the day-to-day as much. Cause I hired people out to do that. So I had the business based in Dallas while I was in New York working or training in dance. And so it was just a lot of new stuff. And so all of that had to come to like to the table, we had to just bring it all to them.

Okay. This is what’s working. This is, what’s not working and work and work through that and say, okay, based off of, you know, the decision. you know, that we made to be married, like, what are we wanting to build? What do we want this to look like? And I’m like, this is not looking like what I want it to look like, so we need to change some things.

So first we have to get clear about what we really wanted it to look like versus just saying what we didn’t want.

OL: Yeah. I, I think to sort of find the priority, you have to sort of sort the laundry and we had to just put everything out and just sort it. Okay. What are we working with? What’s here. What’s really important.

Sway: Yeah. You just work through that for sure.

Kathy: Awesome. Have you guys had a mentor at any point for your marriage, a marriage coach or a counselor? or pastor

Sway: Oh, we are big proponents of marriage counsel. We started marriage counseling before we were even engaged. Yup. So we knew we were gonna, like, that was a road that we were going down.

So before we were even officially engaged,

OL: we’re trying to get a head start.

Sway: Listen, we don’t, we don’t want that kind of drama. So we just. wanted to get around as many things as possible? And then once we got engaged, of course, we went through another formal counseling. And then our counselor did a recommendation after she finished our premarital.

She said that we needed to, for her recommendation, for us to get married was that we would do what do you call it? Maintenance counseling

OL: so we had to do that for at least a year after we got married as a recommendation too. Yeah, we

did it for a couple of years. I mean, we would still do it. We just moved. And so we don’t.

Sway: I mean we’re proponents of it. We would do that. So

OL: we were getting tune-ups long after,

Kathy: We do that with our cars, right? Yep. Yeah. Why would we not do that with our relationship? And yet I found, my background’s a marriage and family therapist that so many wait until it is dead on arrival. Like the engine has been driving it without oil for a hundred thousand miles, and then they want to know why their car doesn’t run. Yeah.

You know, so I love, and yet another example of the wisdom you guys have. It’s awesome. You know, last summer, another post I saw that, touched me deeply Sway was after the news of George Floyd’s death and this, it just ignited this long simmering. It had been simmering a long time, I think, in our country to just wake up to how people of color are treated differently.

And you, you did a couple of posts that were so lovely about just talking about how this was impacting. OL, , and how you were supporting him. And going back to my days of marriage therapy training, I could sum it up in a phrase and that is if a couple can have empathy for each other, there is nothing you can’t figure out and your

were just a beautiful example of that. And I would like to hear from you guys what it was like to give and to receive that empathy. Hmm

OL: Hmm, Hmm. Yeah. Wow.

I think there’s it was very comforting to me, for my wife to pursue understanding as to how I could potentially be feeling what those nuances might be and really listen listen, in the sense of, help me understand what I call the HMU help me understand. And so doing that in one sense was very.

Comforting for me, it was very it was just a, really, a really great feeling that I think in some ways confirmed our bond, but also I think it affirmed our bond and even explained it in some ways. So yeah, that’s the short answer, I think for me.

Sway: Yeah. I think for me, I had never thought to ask, me, I would always hear stories about, you know, we have slightly different upbringings as far as just experiences as an exposures exposures.

Yeah. Growing up. So I would, I don’t think, I think this our whole time knowing each other, I never really. Put myself in his shoes for like, he would tell me stories about growing up and in school and just trying to like fight each day and literally like having fight, I’m like, Oh, I’ve never been in a fight.

Like, you know, like what, what is that like, you know, just like, that’s kind of traumatic as a kid, you know? Like how, how are you, you know, all these years later, but then also thinking about him as I just think of him as, as my husband, but not thinking that he, I just didn’t know like where, where he was emotionally.

Like, how were you feeling as a man and then as a black man, like, do you feel different? Like, I don’t know, I’m not in your shoes and I don’t. And I saw, I just, you know, wanted to know, you know, without him trying to put on an air of, Oh, I’m good. You know, I don’t, I didn’t, I just wanted to know. And I wanted him to know that I was asking about him, you know, and not just as my husband, but as a person.

And so For me, it was just really about, you know, digging and realizing how much I needed to dig, you know, just to get him to get past those layers of whatever of expectations, responsibilities, and, you know, previous conversations, how he’s always, you know, responded. So I think it was just really a nice it was a good heart to heart, you know, just to seeing like how, how were you doing?

How was your heart, what is, are you impacted at all? Or do you feel any different or have you ever experienced this at all? Or what, you know, what are your stories? And so I don’t think we’ve ever, we have talked about it cause I know things happen. But not like this, you know what I mean? In the past has been like, Oh, you dealt with that.

Okay. All right. You know but not in this situation. Well, how did it make you feel? You know, how are you doing emotionally? So I just wanted to share that. I guess I forgot that I even shared it publicly, you know, but I wanted to. To share because others may have been dealing with that and maybe had not thought about it at all.

So,

Kathy: yeah. Well, it was very powerful when I watched it and it sounds like just sometimes just creating space for people and letting them know that whatever you’re okay. But you can, you can let your guard down. You can take the mask off. I’m a safe person. And I, I thought it was a beautiful demonstration of, of empathy that probably deepened your relationship a little that’s how marriage long-term goes.

Right. We keep peeling off layers.

Thank you for sharing that.

Sway: Thank you. Thank you for bringing it up.

Kathy: Yeah, I have a couple more questions when you’re, if you were talking with a couple, say a young couple behind you. Younger, y’all are still young, but younger couple, who is thinking of one or both being entrepreneurs, what is some advice you would give them to think about as they consider this

this approach?

OL: Yeah. I think at first, what I would say is to really have a, a marriage focused definition of success,

rather than letting what may seem common or pervasive or. normative even as to the success or what success is, and even how success, quote, unquote, may even be pursued, I would say have a, a value driven centered, focused definition of success that you to set that is not especially, and I’m speaking as a believer, especially that is not dictated from the outside because. The moment I, we, as a married couple, I would say this to them begin pursuing whatever the dictated definition of success is, then our values and our priorities will really be in the background.

And that’s how it was real easy to get the, the tail wagging the dog.

Sway: That’s a good I would say something and we’ll probably right around those saying along those same lines is like the practical part of marriage. I mean, something that we were told before we got married and I would definitely share this piece of wisdom with this couple would be to protect your date nights.

Right. So keep dating because ultimately what that does is it does the same thing you were just talking about is nurturing the marriage, making sure you have time for the marriage, like you create that time and make it a priority that actually speaks. It does, it does things that it actually puts things in order without even having to,

to say certain things like we’re saying, well, no, my marriage isn’t on the back burner or no, I’m not putting everything or everyone else first it’s like, once you do this and you do this on a regular basis and you make it like a staple in your marriage, it actually sets the precedence for everything and everyone else.

Right? Like this is when we have our date nights or our date days or lunches or whatever, maybe everything else has to fall in order around that, you know, maybe kind of messy over there, but this right here, this is our space. So I would definitely say that concerning marriage. And then when it comes to the business piece of that really ties in though too, is just making sure that there are very, you know, clear boundaries, systems in place.

I would definitely recommend that they get plugged into a community. A marriage community as well as a business community. So, you know, both, and that’s the reason why we even started Marriedpreneur Life, because we didn’t have a community with both of them, you know, we would go to marriage. Yeah, I’d go to marriage counseling to get help, but it wouldn’t impact the business.

It wouldn’t teach us how to do business. And then business, they would, you know, say, throw everything into the business and then your marriage will be there after. We were like, that’s not healthy either. So you know, we will recommend that they, you know, get plugged in. I was like, get plugged into Marriedpreneur Life, , really?

So, or they can just do both ways, marriage, community, and in then business community, because both of those together, it would really help accelerate where they’re going at the same time, protecting what’s most important.

Kathy: Okay. So good. You guys, this is wonderful. And if people want information about your program and what you offer, what’s the best way for them to reach you?

Sway: Oh sure. marriedpreneurlife.com . That’s a great place to start. We have some great resources there, everything from the podcast, which is like a weekly workshop in and of itself. We have it set up now. Too, we have some training download from marriedpreneur checklist, a free download there. We have an assessment call for marriedpreneurs to set that up.

That’s an option too. And we have a marriedpreneur map, a marketing map. Like there’s lots of good stuff right there at marriedpreneurlife.com.

Kathy: Perfect. And I will spell that out and put it in the show notes. Anything else at all, that’s on your heart today, before we go, I want to give you a chance to say any final words.

OL: Yeah, I, I would just reiterate what I said. A few moments ago and that would be, you know, sit down, define success for your family and don’t let that be defined by the definition or by the, by the values of others.

Sway: Yeah. I echo that. That’s real. Just be very clear about the core and everything else will, will find its way to where it needs to be.

But as long as you all are protecting their marriage and making sure that’s priority as you’re building. And then, you know, there’s a saying that, you know, to, to balance like you’re to balance marriage and business or just life, but I don’t really espouse to that belief of balance when it comes to life, because it’s more like a juggling act at times.

And sometimes we, we drop some balls and, you know, you pick them up and sometimes things slip through the cracks cracks, but it just depends on the season that you’re in. I think it’s important to be very. Be aware of the season that you’re in. ..Some seasons, you know, the marriages extremely strong and solid, and you can afford to go in a little bit harder when it comes to the business.

And that’s fine as long as you all have that arrangement, that agreement, but there are other seasons when you need to go all in on your marriage, you know, and the business is going to have to do what it’s going to have to do. You know, you have hopefully that’s the reason that we also are very big proponents of having systems in place.

So it can, it can, it can be most efficient. And so I think it’s important to realize pursuing this like perfect balance of life with marriage and business. I think that’s like a false place. It doesn’t really exist when you really think about it. And so just being, being present where you are now is, is most important being present in what you’re to be focused in on now is most important.

And making sure that regardless of what that season is that you two are on the same page regardless and work to get there. I love that work to get there. Wait,

Kathy: if we, we do a lot of work, but there’s a lot of fun in the process and you guys are certainly models of that. And by all means, follow them on Instagram, @marriedpreneurlife .

So I want to thank you guys so much for your time today. It is wonderful to see you and I wish you all the best and I’m gonna keep following you.

Sway: Thank you so much for having us. It’s been our pleasure.

037 Buckleys

Kathy: Hey everyone. I am joined today by O L & Sway Buckley, and it is my great honor to have them today. How are you guys?

Sway: We’re wonderful!

How are you

OL: Doing very well, glad to be here? How are you?

Kathy: Good. I am doing well. Thank you. And third time’s a charm. We’ve had to reschedule a time or two, and I just thank you guys for hanging in there with me.

So welcome.

Sway: Thank you for having us.

Kathy: Tell us a little bit about where you guys are. I follow you on Instagram and I can’t quite figure out where you are.

Sway: We are in New Jersey, North Northern the Northern part of New Jersey right outside of Hey, New York city. Yeah, literally on the other side of the Hudson.

Kathy: Yes. Okay. Did you move somewhere this year? Because I remember a story about getting a bunch of stuff out of storage.

OL: So yeah. So a few years back we, we moved from Texas after having been there about 19 years,

Sway: and then those things were saying you just left it there! So she’s like, okay,

that was a prompt, right. So you can know what happened. Like how do we, what was that you were seeing is what the question was about? I get it. And so that time when we moved from Texas the things that we left there were left in moving pods. And so recently, I guess that was last year. We have my family specifically my mom’s side, we have property down in in South Carolina.

And so instead of leaving our things in the pods, now that she has, she put a house on the land. And so we just brought our things to the other property in South Carolina. So that’s what you were seeing.

Kathy: Gotcha. I have been wondering, okay. Mystery solved.

I want to start off with a couple of fun ways just to let people get to know you a little bit. If your marriage was a team sport, what would it be?

OL: Yeah, that is a great question. And I kinda, I feel like it would be two different ones. On one hand, I feel like we are bobsledding

Sway: Really? We’re bobsledding

in our marriage?

OL: Sometimes I’m pushing and she’s steering sort of the nose and sometimes I’m steering the nose. She’s pushed me. It just depends, but then I also think it’s probably a little bit of curling or is that the word curling?

Kathy: Oh, that’s funny. We all watch it in the Olympics, but it’s like, what is this?

Sway: The things you learn about your marriage on a podcast interview? I tell you

I don’t know. I would say basketball, maybe. Just the different roles. I mean, we will play different roles in, in, in each of us will we’ll do it. See, I probably shouldn’t do basketball because I don’t even know all the different players, but the goal is to get the ball inside of the basket. And so we are throwing the ball back and forth, rebounding.

And in doing, what do you call them? Don’t come in scoring. dunking

Kathy: there you go. And just so you know, I think dancing is a sport.

Sway: Yes, it is. It is. It absolutely

OL: is a lot of coordination involved there, for sure.

Kathy: Yeah. For those of you listening, you just have to follow married preneur life on Instagram because they post the most adorable.

posts And they are the best dancers ever.

I’m wanting. OL to give my husband some lessons. So there you go. Yeah. No pressure, no pressure. What is the craziest or most fun thing you guys have ever done on a date? So far?

Sway: The craziest and most fun thing we’ve done on a date for, I don’t know if we have the same answers, I would say this is crazy.

This is before we got married crazy. And I mean, it was crazy if we were married too, but young and naive when we first met not first, first, but pretty new. He was taking me to different. He was, well, I don’t know. Well, he was taking me to different places. I was new to Texas, going there for college for undergrad.

And so he was just like showing me the vision for what he saw for our life. Like, I want to sh I want to take her to this exclusive neighborhood with these houses, these huge homes who were, you know, just being, you know, built and some of them model homes or, you know, some are completed, some aren’t.

And so it was in a very it was a, you know, gated community. And so he, we drove this, I don’t know, like the area, and now I’m just like looking like, Oh, these are nice. So I’m not really thinking anything. Other than, okay, this is cool. But then he’s like, let me show you something. So he parked the car, we get out the car and it’s dark outside.

So it’s nighttime, it’s dark. And so, yeah,

OL: let me say this it’s after business hours, that’s, that’s, that’s an important part.

Kathy: So

Sway: go, we go these houses. So we ended up trespassing on a date and I felt like, I don’t know if we should be like, this is not our house. Like, this is trust me. And I’m just like, okay.

I don’t know. And so, you know, after the back hindsight, I was, you know, we talked about, I think you told your mom and then she was like, you guys should have never, what are you doing? The cops could come, and you’re trespassing

and I was like, I didn’t even know. You know? So that was kind of crazy not to look back on it. As a date, I mean, young and naive and trying to show me, take me, give me the role. Yeah,

OL: that that’s, that’s definitely a good one. I would say it would have happened during our, it was on our honeymoon. We were in Mexico and we were, she wanted us to sort of go off the resort and sorta just make our way into town.

Sway: I want to be with the people.

OL: And so we there’s a, there’s a cargo van. I don’t, I don’t know how we got this cargo van was a cargo van. You know, one of the ones with no

Sway: windows. No, you’d have to back up at the airport. When we were leaving, when we were arriving, we were leaving the airport, they have all these different people there that no, they

OL: bombard you for like the sit in on the session here, the presentation

Sway: and the timeshare

and so I signed it. Doesn’t we don’t live here. We’re not going to buy anything right now. We’re just barely. Yeah. That’s what it was a massage and a meal. And so we were like, okay, we’ll do it.that You know, we didn’t, we were so young naive & we were like, OK, that sounds like fun and so that’s when we went down, then they picked us up in a unmarked yeah.

OL: In a, in a industrial cargo van. And so we go, they couldn’t come onto the property. That should have been red flag. Number one, you have to come off the property onto the street. So I didn’t know up from down at this point. So we go off the property, go into the street, we get into the cargo van. There’s like two other guys in there.

And then I realized. I realized I forgot

Sway: to bring the paper that he gave us the paper paper.

OL: And so the guy says, Oh,

Sway: The guy says, Oh,

OL: you can leave your wife. He said, she can stay. And we’ll be here when you get back,

we’re looking at each other and she’s like, you better not leave.We’ve been married less than 24 hours.It’s funny if you ever seen those like those videos of people skydiving and like two people do it together and they’ll hold hands simultaneously. We held hands and jumped out of the van simultaneously.

Sway: Good, but, you know, they were there when we did come back and they were still waiting there and it was actually a great trip.

Like they fed us well, we listened to the presentation, but we just told the lady who just got married yesterday. So we’re not going to buy property

if we haven’t even purchased our first home together. So she’s like, okay, I’ll go. But just next time, make sure you let people know that you’re not. I’m like, okay, you didn’t ask all that. I would’ve told them, but just wanted to have us come. So they, we did that full day of massages and ended up being in a commercial.

Like for the resort, it was great. They said, Hey can

OL: can can we film you guys and put put you guys in. I was like, sure. They gave us extra food. Let us stay longer. Yeah, but our crazy days involved a little bit of danger.

Sway: Just a little bit. Yeah.

Kathy: I had a feeling. That’s why I asked that question. I haven’t asked that

I don’t think of anybody else that you guys were kind of there on the edge. And OL was glad that that wasn’t one of the times that you left her there and said, just trust me.

Sway: I would not

Kathy: Smart man smart, man. What is a book or a person that has affirmed or influenced the person you are today?

OL: Yes. So many ways to answer that. Go ahead.

Sway: I know, I would say there’s a lot of ways to answer that for me as well too, but one of the recent books. I’ve read it. I’ve read some of his books years ago, but then as of recent revisiting John Maxwell’s, book, , and reading about just the importance of how can you talking about leadership, but just how you treat people and that being a big part of, of the process of being a good leader, like really, really caring for people in order for you to, to have make deposits and then make withdrawals in that relationship.

So definitely John Maxwell is up there for me.

OL: Yeah. That’s that’s, I’m trying to pick, right. Cause I’ve been sort of checked out by several books, but if I had to choose one of them

Kathy: and you’ve got your books just line the wall behind you. So I’m sure it’s hard to pick one.

OL: There, there is one that I’ve read most recently and it’s called Gentle and Lowly.

And it’s by an author, Dane Ortlund and it’s when Christ said, you know that, that I am gentle and lowly. And so it’s really dealing with meekness and really just, just, just growing in and maturing in the love of God has been a, it’s been a great book.

Kathy: Very good. I’ll try to hunt down those titles and put those in the show notes.

So I want to hear a little bit about y’all’s backstory before we get to what you’re doing today, but I picked up through just, you know, following you guys on Instagram that you dated a very long time, tell us how you met and what, what that long courtship was about.

Sway: Yeah. Well, we met at church actually.

He was a janitor for the church at the church, and I did not know, I don’t even, he says I walked on his wet floors. I don’t even remember doing that.

OL: She ignored the yellow caution with fluorescein, so

Sway: you can ignore it. I just had to get up the stairs and the floor was wet in front of the stairs. So I still had to get to my, I had to get to the stairs, you know?

So

OL: mop the floors, somebody, just somebody just sashayed across it!

Sway: Would you have around it to get up the stairs? Like the floor was wet. So, and then I asked him a question that was actually having a pastoral meeting and to see if the past was the pastor’s office was upstairs. And so I just asked him if, you know, if the pastor was in and I, you told me yes.

And I went up the stairs. I didn’t think anything of it.

OL: So it was on a Monday. And so most churches don’t have a lot of people there on Mondays, at least not Monday morning. So I, based on what I knew, I knew that pretty much any car in the parking lot that was not mine or a few of the staff members had to have been hers.

So I went out and that’s when I saw her her little red Toyota and I said, taken, she drives a red Toyota.

Sway: It was I guess you would call it, what do you call it? You were tracking me after that.

OL: Yeah. So like, if you ask her, she would say, it’s stalking. If you ask me, I would say it’s gathering Intel

Kathy: gathering Intel.

Woo. So how long did you gather Intel, before you asked her out.

Sway: I don’t even know how long it was, because I don’t remember him. I don’t remember. I remember the pastors meet, like, meeting with that pastor because he was new at that time. And I was, I’m working on doing some things with the youth. So that’s why I remember that meeting, but he said that’s when he was there.

So I vaguely remember somebody being there. So I don’t even know time-wise how long it took for him to approach me. But I will tell you this, when he did approach me, it took a year for him to get my number. And it was just a lot of different things. And we just hadn’t seen each other a lot or, you know, when we did see each other, it was a huge church.

So by the time we run into each other over that year, that I finally, when he asked me again about it, I gave it to him and then, so that everything went really slow in that regard. I just wanted to make sure he wasn’t some crazy guy. So if he can be this patient okay. And I actually spoke with my father too, and I’d asked him, I said, this guy asked me for my number.

And he said, well, watch him, you know, watch him for a while. And I was like, I’ve watched him for a few months. And he was like, what are you thinking? And I was like, he seems okay. He’s like, okay, well give me your numbers. I was like, Oh, okay. That’s what I was supposed to do. Okay. So, and that was really like my green light just to do that next step.

But yeah, so I think it was that first year. And then the remaining nine years after that,

OL: you know, it’s so funny. Just before. I don’t, I don’t know how long it was prior to us getting here to, prior to me proposing, but I just, we, we laugh about it today. Her, her mom used to say, Hey, what’s going on with that Otis guy?

He just keeps hangin around right? Yeah.

I’ve just been hanging around for like nine years.

Sway: Oh

yeah. I think we were just really young. And so I think that plays a big part of it, for sure. I was like 19 when we met. So. And I was fresh out of high school. Well, 18, 19 going into my sophomore year of college. So, you know, it was just like, we weren’t, I don’t think we weren’t mature at that point, you know, enough to have a sustain of a marriage that will be sustained, like, but by our choosing.

So I think that was, it was just the timing of it. And then I went off to explore more of the world. I mean, my background is in dance, so I came out to New York to do some dancing and just live life, you know as a single person, we were still in a relationship, just it a long distance, but it was still like, we’re just going to be, there was nothing for me to wait around for.

I’m like, I’m not going to put my life on hold. I’m just going to keep living and, and we’ll see where this goes. And yeah. And

OL: so, yeah, and I was, I was in the music industry and sort of pursuing that life and, you know, that’s, that’s all consuming and so. You know, between that and just sort of me hanging around.

Sway: Yeah, I love it.

Kathy: Well, and that, you know, that demonstrates some wisdom really, because we were 21 and 22 and we didn’t wait around. We just said, well, let’s go. So yeah, that, to me shows some wisdom in your relationships. So you guys have been married, how long at this point?

Sway: 11 years now. 11

Kathy: years? Yeah. Okay.

Wonderful, perfect years. Right? Right.

OL: So you add it all up. I think we’ve known each other 20 years.

Kathy: That’s amazing. That’s amazing. Well, tell us also a little bit about your backgrounds. I’ve read up a little bit and and you guys, kind of came from different directions and gradually merged as entrepreneurs. So I’d like to hear a little bit about how you got to where you are today.

So whoever wants to start tell us how you, you know, kind of your work background and did you know you were an entrepreneur?

Sway: Yeah, well, for me, I started my first business at the age of 16. It was the tutoring company. I did not even know I was starting a company. I didn’t know what I was doing, but the opportunity presented itself to tutor kids.

And it started with some of my cousins who came to live with my family. And one of my youngest, the youngest cousin, it was three of them who came the youngest one, she was five and she was not reading. And it bothered me. And that, you know, 16, you don’t know what your gifts are. You don’t know that you’re a teacher.

And so I just, took some cards, index cards. And I started making, you know, little words for her, alphabet. And by the end of the week, she was reading from a book and my mom was like, that is not week. Like, yeah. She was like, that’s, that’s something special. And I was like, Oh, I don’t know. Like, I’m just a kid. I’m like, I just knew she needed help.

And I want my cousin to be able to read and she’s five, she should be reading. Like, that’s just what I thought. And so the next thing, I know, my mom told one of her girlfriends about it who had a son around the same age who was having issues reading as well. And so that was my first client. And that’s, it just grew from there.

Well, from there, I, when I went off to college, I continued tutoring, but it was more so like autistic children and happened to be all boys. And so I did a lot. And as a dance major, I did a lot of fine and gross motor skills with them, but also phonetics and just basic things with them. I enjoy working with kids.

And so. I did that. And then my sophomore year in high in college, I started, I didn’t even know what it was, but I’ve come to find out later that it was a staffing firm. So it was a staffing company. I started where the school districts partner with the school districts as my clients and as a dance major, they wanted me to meet initially to come and teach.

And of course I was trying to pay for college. And so I said, well, sure. And I could only teach, but so much because I was a full-time student dance major, double minor in business and religion. And so I started teaching and then they asked for more. Now, mind you, I’d never taught before. I just was like, okay, you’re giving me an opportunity to make some money.

That’s all I hear. So I’m going to think, and I’ve worked with enough kids, I can figure it out. It can’t be that hard. And so that’s really what I did as a, started that as a freshman into my freshman year. And then they asked for me to do more hours. And so I was like, I can’t but I didn’t want to say no, cause I’m like, this is helping me pay for tuition.

And so I said, well, can I, can I bring on people like, can I be the in-between and I can refer and bring people under me is what I was thinking. They said sure we just need people. And so I started hiring my friends, you know, I said, Hey, you want to make some money when I get paid, I’ll pay you a portion of this.

So I was able to make money off of them working in more and more people. They started hiring like needing more and more people, not just dancers, but. You know, thespians and visual artists and musicians, and I’m like, I’ll find them, I will find them. And so I was like, I would just go to the art department here at school.

I’m sure there’s some kids who want a job. And so that’s how I started. And that literally paid my way through. I mean, it’s a very expensive process, but actually, I mean, I’d say expensive. Like it, it, it really started bringing in revenue quickly, but it also opened doors for other scholarships. I ended up getting a education scholarship, a business scholarship, cause I had the business.

And then I did the religion and when I was answering phones initially and being in the religion department I was able to hear about different scholarship opportunities. Cause it was, you know, I was out of state and it was a private institution. So it was like all these fees on top of everything.

And then I was an RA, so I was just finding ways to pay for school. And so I’m thinking this is just another way. So with the religion department, I find out that there’s a scholarship. If you’re, if you minor in religion, they’ll pay half your tuition. I was like, What do I need to do to minor? Just what do I need to do?

Classes all three extra classes, sign me up. Okay. I’m a religion minor, you know, half my tuition. And then for business, I was getting scholarships, you know, because now I had this business. So bank of America was giving money. All these different donors. I was just, you know, applying for app, you know, for, for, for money.

Cause I’m like, I need to figure it out. And then the education department, because I had my business once again, working with school districts, then as my partners as my clients and none of the education majors were going after the scholarship during this time. But I, you know, was pretty persistent with going after it.

And so because of the company that I was running, the education department granted me like a full ride, even on top of the money, you know, they pay for everything. So there was some retroactive. Yeah, they, yeah. They were like, whatever you want. Wow. Yeah. So I think I had for that business, I still run it today and literally it was open door to get everything, you know, paid for my tuition.

And so after that I said, well, I’m just going to keep this job because this is, and then, you know, really quickly it brought on started earning, you know, multiple six figures and very early in on just hiring people. And I just felt like this is an opportunity to have a revenue stream and still, you know, dance, do what I love to do.

So that’s how that was the beginning of my entrepreneurial journey.

Kathy: And did you call yourself an entrepreneur at that point? Or were you, it sounds like you were just like, I need money. This is an opportunity you didn’t overthink yet.

Sway: No, I didn’t overthink it at all. I knew I wanted to do business, which is why I minored in business from jump street.

I just didn’t know what that was going to look like. And I just didn’t know. I knew it was a business. I just didn’t know. I didn’t even know what to call it. I’m like, I don’t even know what this is that I’m doing, but it’s paying the bills. I was like, you know, and so that eventually a couple of years into it, I think maybe my junior year I started thinking, well, is this a, is it a staffing firm?

Like, what is this that I’m doing? I didn’t even know. Like, what did it like, you know, I just didn’t know. And so I said, well, I think it’s a staffing firm. And then I said, well, I think, but it’s not a staffing. Cause I was, I would think like corporate America, you know, staffing in that regard. But I was like, this is not that this is something different.

I don’t even know. I’ve never seen this, what I’m doing. So I’m just gonna keep doing it and figure out what to call it. So when people would ask me what I did, I just said, I’m a dancer because I didn’t know how to explain what I did. I was just like, Oh, I dance or I teach dance, but I never explained, Oh, I run a creative art staffing firm so that, you know, a couple of years into it, I said, I think this is like a creative art staffing firm?

Like, cause at first I was like, as a dance staffing and I was like, well, it’s creative arts. But then it turned into me hiring like coders and all these other types of people that did great things for the kids as well too. So I just call it a creative arts staffing firm, to this day. That’s what it’s called.

That’s my story.

Kathy: And ed, you’re still running that. Right?

Sway: Right. It just ebbs and flows. I don’t, I’ve never done like one. I’m not gonna say never when I graduated, that’s when I started doing marketing, like grassroots marketing, knocking on doors. Boys and girls clubs. Cause I moved from that area to another city and I’m like, I have to start over, but I was like, I know what to do.

I’ve been doing it. And then I got other contracts with some pretty pretty well-funded organizations. When I started from the beginning with me teaching and then I just started bringing on people again and rebuilt it. And, but that’s the marketing that I’ve done. I haven’t done anything else in, in that sense.

So I say that to say, so when opportunities come nowadays, I’m just a pretty well oiled machine and I that’s, you know what I do in the background.

Kathy: Gotcha. Okay. And did you have a mentor, Sway, that. Maybe you didn’t even consider them a mentor at the time, but somebody in your family or a family friend or someone that also had their own business that even gave you the idea that you could do this, or was this just an internal,

Oh, it was, this can do this.

Sway: Definitely an internal I, there was a, I kind of had a freak accident. I can talk about that. I had a freak accident, the third day of college and where I was sewing a ballet shoe and I jumped off the bed and the needle broke off inside of my foot, and they thought they were going to, amputate, so long story short, all gosh, after, as my foot is swelling up, like a couple of weeks into it because nobody would touch it because the main doctor in the neighborhood said, don’t leave, like leave it in for six months or six weeks rather, and then come back.

And anyway so by the time I finally found his counterpart is equal, they were like, yeah, this needs to come out right away. So I was on crutches at first full semester. And that’s when, and I still had to go to my dance classes and watch them dance and journal and stuff. So I just, it just brought me to my knees really.

I say, okay, God, well, what is it that you have for me to do? I know this is something that’s in my heart, but also I need to know like what those gifts are that are in my hands. So I could beyond the dancing. So, you know, I can have other revenue streams. And even when I get out into the real world, I didn’t want to be in a situation where I had to dance or I had to go take a job, a dance job that I didn’t want to do to eat, you know?

And so the opportunity came when, when I got off my crutches, I had an op somebody, you know, realize I was a dance major and offer. They said they had a friend who’s doing some work with the local school district and they wanted to know if I’d be interested in teaching, like that’s how it happened.

And so, yeah, when it came to mentoring, that was later on, I would say, as I started investing in coaching. That was very intentional. It still is very intentional, but as far as how it started, it was just like very internal type of thing. Just kind of finding my way as I was going.

Kathy: Awesome. Well, thanks for sharing that.

And let’s hear your story, OL, yours is a little more varied. Shall we say I’ve done some reading and it’s fascinating.

OL: So, yeah. So while we’re, I love hearing Sway’s story every time I hear it , because it just reminds me just cause I was there. Yeah. Yeah. It was amazing. So just to see her growth and just over the time, but yeah, so, you know, for many years I wanted to do music. Pretty much all through high school and that was really my focus and my aim and my drive.

And so I pursued that.

Kathy: Do you play an instrument or singing?

OL: Performance aspect, but I also wanted to do a lot of writing and producing. And so and, and, and then even move that over into media, television, movies, et cetera. And so I thought I wanted to do that for quite a while and I pursued it. As sort of my, my backup, I thought would be broadcast journalism.

I thought, you know, it’d be great to do the news, as they say. And so I pursued that even, even in school and being originally from Chicago, there was a school that was really strong in music production as well as journalism. It was called Columbia, not Columbia like New York, but Columbia, Chicago.

So I pursued that and that was prior to me moving to Texas. And so long story short. I moved to Texas. I pretty much niched it down and pinpointed it down mostly to music. And so that was my pursuit and ended up getting assigned to an independent record company that was ran by some people who at one point worked for Warner Brothers.

And so it was myself and about three other artists and they were going to take us, cultivate us, shop us around. And then we were going to, you know, go to the majors as it, as it were. So I signed that record deal. And that was interesting. And so I ended up actually becoming an employee of the same record company because the money got tight.

And so doing that, living in an efficiency apartment and working there and I had a lot of fits and starts as often happens in the music business. Almost make it, almost make it, ..Almost make it, didn’t make it. Almost make it, almost make it, almost make it, didn’t make it. And so it was a lot of that. And so just the sort of mountain high, valley, low tumult of that really began to wear on me. Fast forward, I turned 30 and I said, you know what?

This is looking really crazy. I am pursuing music with reckless abandon. I am financially unfit, unstable inconsistent, and I’m 30. And I decided to forego school because I was almost this close. Almost make it, .Almost make it almost make it didn’t make it. And so, you know, after so many years of that, you kind of have a come to Jesus moment, as they say, and it’s like, all right, I’ve got to pivot here.

You know, I’m getting older and, you know, with an industry that’s so driven by youth, I had to really take honest account of that, particularly when you’re talking about, you know contemporary and urban music. So that being said, I, the, well, the, one of the persons that managed the label has some connections in the radio industry and they said, you know what?

You’ve got a great personality, you’d be a great sales person. I have a friend who’s a sales manager at CBS, over all of their radio stations, their whole cluster. And I think you’d be great. And so made a phone call, got an interview, got the job. All of a suddenly I’m wearing shorts and ties every day suits every day, which by the way, I had next to none of that in my wardrobe

and so I am now in this a hundred percent commission job. And this starts, this is sort of around 2008. So I think we all know what life was like in 2008 economically speaking. And so that being said I worked there for a year. Meanwhile, Sway and I are engaged. The market goes soft. I’m now back in my draw because when you work a hundred percent commission, you sort of like have to work against the draw.

Well, I was already three months behind and I really wasn’t booking any clients. So I had to make a decision, either sell something or leave. And I left because it was very, very difficult to sort of fast forward here. There was a bridge and opportunity for me to go into the banking industry. And this came through a mutual friend of,

my wife and I, one day we’re at a birthday party for a mentee of Sway’s and there’s this mutual friend of ours who is high up in the banking industry was there. Cause we sort of all kind of knew each other. And she said to me, she said, you know what? I think you’d be really good in banking. And I thought, me like, that’s a big change.

And so I thought, nah, no, no thank you. But I don’t really see it. She’s like, no seriously. And so I said, okay, long story short, I got the interview, got the job. And this is now 2009 or going into 2009. And I started off entry level, worked my way up, got my licenses. Got into wealth management, got into business banking and I am now off to the races and I’m working with peers of mine at this point, colleagues who are many of them MBAs and I’m learning the industry.

And there was one senior gentlemen who came from Merrill Lynch way back in the day. And he sort of took me under his wing and he’s seen the economy go through all kinds of stuff from the eighties. And so he’s sort of coaching me during work hours and I’m learning a lot winning started winning awards, fast-forward Sway and I get married, a year into our marriage.

Cause the bank I worked for was based out of Spain. I won an award for us to go to Spain. And we’re there now top producer, top producer from out of, yeah, actually out of all of it, which included Latin America, Europe and the U S. And so all of a sudden, the person who wasn’t a numbers guy becomes a numbers guy.

And so it was just very interesting. Yeah.

Kathy: Oh my goodness. How do you, how do you explain that kind of unaware part of yourself that was just waiting for an opportunity?

OL: Yeah, I I dunno, I think when, when life sort of especially as entrepreneurs, when we life sort of puts us in a position where we are, you know, our back is against the wall, oftentimes opportunities present themselves.

That seems so unthinkable, like for maybe our background experience or our skillset. And so saying yes, Gave me an opportunity to just jump in and learn. And when I jumped in, I was intense by the way. I read every financial book you could possibly imagine. I talked to people who were in the financial industry, people who were senior to me, and I’ve just spent a lot of time sponging and soaking up.

And so when I left from the last bank I worked for and I say left, but I actually was let go from the last bank I worked for. It was pretty sudden now, Texas is what they call an at-will state. So your first 90 days is probation and they can let you go anytime within that 90 day period with pretty much no elaborate explanation. On my 90th day, I ended up getting, let go for actually over-performing for doing too well without going into the

Sway: yeah.

Yeah. Well, you had explained to you where you were when you were recruited . I was recruited from the other

OL: banks, one bank to go to a, another bank. And when I got recruited to go to this bank, they were sort of, I’m recruiting me for a year. Courting me, should say for a year. And they they called me and said, Hey, we have an opportunity.

We know where you live. Do you still live at this address based on what you shared with us last time? And I said, yeah, they said, we can shorten your drive from basically 45 minutes in the morning and two hours in the evening to 10 minutes, one way. And so it was an opportunity for me to move up, to move management and banking is one of those business models, industries.

You kind of move around it. I get there. They interviewed me for a particular job, which actually ended up being my boss’s job. I got hired before my boss, and then my boss got hired after me. And then the guy who hired my boss and me told my boss, and he interviewed me for my bosses job, which put a target on my back.

And so from that, from there my focus was really to grow our business sector. So I worked a lot with hospitals, physicians, medical professionals, et cetera, and ended up getting this meeting with this very large hospital in North Texas. Come to find out Capital Markets was courting them. And I’m going through all this because this gets a little boring.

But bottom line is I got the, I got the interview or got the money. I was told that they were wanting for over a year and that was towed, the cease and desist. And then all of a sudden, the pats on the back, like you’re doing great. The next Monday I was told that was gonna be my last day and that thrust me into entrepreneurship.

Kathy: Okay,

go ahead. I’m sorry.

Now, say that

OL: again.

That’s it into what I do now, which is really consulting for real estate and debt restructure.

Kathy: All right. So you took what you do well, and you said, I’ll go do this on my own. Awesome. So fast forward to currently you guys do Marriepreneur Life? Yes.

Sway: Manure. Yes. You have

Kathy: a website, yes.

And a wonderful Instagram account. Tell us how you came about launching this topic.

Sway: Well I would say when we, when he left the bank and he started his own company and I was already running my business at the staffing firm, as well as the consultancy. I did start another business after that. Cause a lot of the people I was staffing, they would end up needing jobs or like wanting they needed to start their own business.

And I just ended up helping them do that. So that’s how the consultancy side, my, some of my clients and some of his clients would actually come to us individually and ask us if we would help them and their spouses, once they realized that they were needing help and we were like, we don’t do that. I don’t even know what you, what you’re looking for.

But one in particular, one friend, a couple, they were very persistent and just like for a good year, they would ask me yea, I can no, no, no. Finally we told them. We say, well maybe, maybe we’re onto something, maybe, maybe we’re overlooking something. Cause they would, people would just keep asking us for, for insight and for skills with, with, with working together with the spouse.

But not only that, but just really putting systems together and building a, you know, a legacy of family, legacy of business legacy together. And so. We were just working on our own systems for our own selves, because after he came home from the bank, I said, well, we need to have something in place. So we have, you know, accountability.

And so I just started creating different types of ways for us to do that. So I wouldn’t feel like, he wouldn’t feel like either that I was nagging wife. And so I thought it was just, you know, I thought, okay, the systems that we’re putting in place is just for us, not realizing that it was really for others to give those to others.

I didn’t know other people would need that. So that’s how we started working with couples. We just told that initial couple that we would only do work with them and that’s it. And we did a VIP day and walked them through a whole strategy for the year and all the different ideas that they were working on.

They had two young children at the time and they were homeschooling. And then the wife is a CPA and their husband is a church planner. And so it was just a lot of different things going on and they just needed systems. They needed strategy and they were low on energy and they needed clarity. So. We worked with them.

And that was that. And they were so appreciative and they started telling their friends. And so here we are today about what eight ish, nine years later. And we actually have put, you know, the, the systems and packaged them. So now we can do it in a, in a more official, in a thorough way to help other married entrepreneurs.

Kathy: Yeah. Gotcha. I was listening to one of your podcasts. I don’t remember how far back it goes, but I think y’all were at a conference and had there was a panel of other married entrepreneurs and you had wanted to be guests, maybe. I’m not sure if I’m getting this story straight or not, but There was a couple, I think maybe when you asked about being on the panel, you were turned away because the couple that had done it the year before had, since gotten divorced?

Sway: Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, a panel for married entrepreneur. This is a business conference and they did have a panel, but no one was married. Like they were, they were divorced. They were talking about how they work as partners, like just as business partners versus like married entrepreneurs.

Another couple was like married. I think they were, they were engaged and other couple, they were celebrities too, so that, you know, I understand that why they do that. But yeah, that was just insightful to say the least like I’m like you I’m.

Kathy: Yeah. I’m so grateful for the work that you guys do, because I just, I think we hear too much in society or in the business world that you, you have to sacrifice everything to have a successful business, and you guys are perfect examples and you know of, you can have a wonderful marriage and a very successful business, and it’s not one or the other. I would love to hear about as you’ve worked with different couples, what are some common challenges that couples, whether one or both are entrepreneurs,

and I get asked a lot of times, what is an entrepreneur couple? Well, if one person is an entrepreneur, the whole family is right. So it’s either one or both. Yeah.

OL: Yeah. I was just going to say, and sweetheart please go ahead. But yeah, if, if. If one of them is an entrepreneur. What we mean by that is the family is impacted in a direct way by that entrepreneurship.

Sway: Yeah, absolutely. So we’ve coined three types of Marriedpreneurs, we’d like to call them. And so there’s a spousal preneur where one spouse is working a nine to five while the other is operating the business. And there’s an indie preneur where they are building individual separate businesses and in then couple preneurs where they’re building a business together, and we have found that there are couples who are either in one of those types, but they’re wanting to transition or they are in multiple of those types.

And they’re still wanting to transition to either doing it full time or just working to get like getting their momentum going. And so I would say that’s one of the things, one of the main areas couples come to us about is just that transition. Like how to uplevel how to gain momentum, how to gain traction, what type of systems need to have in place?

What do they need to be doing? They have this big vision in their heart, and they’re not really sure what to do with it. They’re just like, we, we just want to do this, but we keep saying one day, one day, one day, but what do we need to do today to actually get to that one day? So I would say that’s one of the common denominators for the couples who approach us or ask for, for our help, would you say?

Yeah,

OL: yeah, I would just add to that, you know, so in those sort of classifications or in those categories. And I’ll just mention one as an example. You know, if, if they are indie preneurs where, you know one is running a business and the other one is running a separate business, they may well meaning want to, you know, support each other and be there for each other.

But one of the, one of the challenges that we found is that it gets to be very difficult because they end up operating like roommates. And so we get down at the dinner table. I was like, Oh, so what happened with your company? Oh, what happened with your company today? Even if they’re, if they get to get to the dinner table.

And so what happens is they end up operating like roommates and sort of like splitting the bills or one person’s business is sort of, you know, generating more revenue than the other person’s business. And so they might be at different levels within business. And so those are some of the common challenges for particularly for that group and this challenge for each of them.

But that one in particular is definitely one that is common. And so systematically we’ve. We found ways because we are that by the way, among we’ve been all three of those specifications by the way. And so we’ve learned these challenges, observed them in those couples that we’ve worked with, but also systematically how to overcome them.

Kathy: So what’s been one of the biggest challenges that you guys have faced as married preneurs, co preneurs.

That’s a

Sway: great question.

OL: My mind goes to one in particular. I remember when we were spousal-preneurs, where I was actually still working at the bank and Sway was really scaling her business and she was on webinars in our home office, all night long. And I had, you know, dealt with what I dealt with on the nine to five.

And, having these sales goals and so forth. And when I came home, I just sort of wanted to, veg out. And so what happened was, you know, I’d be cooking dinner a lot of the nights or spending time reading in the room or what have you. And she would be in the office on the webinars and doing all the training and learning and so forth.

And, and I wanted her to do those things. I, I, I didn’t want her to not do those things, but I just didn’t realize how as spousal preneurs, where one is running the business, it would actually put a strain on our marriage. And I didn’t really know how I fit into that world with her. So I didn’t even know how to support her.

So it just kind of, kind of isolated this and that, and that went on for a period of time. And so we recognize it and, and, and called attention to it.

Kathy: How did you guys end up negotiating that?

OL: I think it was a re-establishment of what’s the priority. Yeah,

Sway: I don’t think it was an overnight thing.

OL: No, it wasn’t. We didn’t arrive at that suddenly.

Sway: Yeah. I think it was you know, talking through that and, and at that same time though, I think I was also transitioning in business and I was starting to test the previous business model. And so that frustration, that rub that you had as well, just the friction of everything, we just have to have a talk, you know and, and work through like, what, what are we building?

You know, what, what are we really building? And we were brand new, like maybe two years into the marriage. I mean, that’s going on? Because then we bought our first house. We had our house built by that time, by our second year of marriage, it was a lot of new changes and just try to get a lot of new stuff.

And although we’ve known each other for so long, I was living in New York and then coming to Dallas after all that time just kinda getting reacclimated. And it was just a lot of things

OL: we know each other in this

context.

Sway: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And then just doing life together, you know and then me getting back into business really in that way.

Cause while I was away dancing, I wasn’t doing, I was still at the business, but I wasn’t like in the day-to-day as much. Cause I hired people out to do that. So I had the business based in Dallas while I was in New York working or training in dance. And so it was just a lot of new stuff. And so all of that had to come to like to the table, we had to just bring it all to them.

Okay. This is what’s working. This is, what’s not working and work and work through that and say, okay, based off of, you know, the decision. you know, that we made to be married, like, what are we wanting to build? What do we want this to look like? And I’m like, this is not looking like what I want it to look like, so we need to change some things.

So first we have to get clear about what we really wanted it to look like versus just saying what we didn’t want.

OL: Yeah. I, I think to sort of find the priority, you have to sort of sort the laundry and we had to just put everything out and just sort it. Okay. What are we working with? What’s here. What’s really important.

Sway: Yeah. You just work through that for sure.

Kathy: Awesome. Have you guys had a mentor at any point for your marriage, a marriage coach or a counselor? or pastor

Sway: Oh, we are big proponents of marriage counsel. We started marriage counseling before we were even engaged. Yup. So we knew we were gonna, like, that was a road that we were going down.

So before we were even officially engaged,

OL: we’re trying to get a head start.

Sway: Listen, we don’t, we don’t want that kind of drama. So we just. wanted to get around as many things as possible? And then once we got engaged, of course, we went through another formal counseling. And then our counselor did a recommendation after she finished our premarital.

She said that we needed to, for her recommendation, for us to get married was that we would do what do you call it? Maintenance counseling

OL: so we had to do that for at least a year after we got married as a recommendation too. Yeah, we

did it for a couple of years. I mean, we would still do it. We just moved. And so we don’t.

Sway: I mean we’re proponents of it. We would do that. So

OL: we were getting tune-ups long after,

Kathy: We do that with our cars, right? Yep. Yeah. Why would we not do that with our relationship? And yet I found, my background’s a marriage and family therapist that so many wait until it is dead on arrival. Like the engine has been driving it without oil for a hundred thousand miles, and then they want to know why their car doesn’t run. Yeah.

You know, so I love, and yet another example of the wisdom you guys have. It’s awesome. You know, last summer, another post I saw that, touched me deeply Sway was after the news of George Floyd’s death and this, it just ignited this long simmering. It had been simmering a long time, I think, in our country to just wake up to how people of color are treated differently.

And you, you did a couple of posts that were so lovely about just talking about how this was impacting. OL, , and how you were supporting him. And going back to my days of marriage therapy training, I could sum it up in a phrase and that is if a couple can have empathy for each other, there is nothing you can’t figure out and your

were just a beautiful example of that. And I would like to hear from you guys what it was like to give and to receive that empathy. Hmm

OL: Hmm, Hmm. Yeah. Wow.

I think there’s it was very comforting to me, for my wife to pursue understanding as to how I could potentially be feeling what those nuances might be and really listen listen, in the sense of, help me understand what I call the HMU help me understand. And so doing that in one sense was very.

Comforting for me, it was very it was just a, really, a really great feeling that I think in some ways confirmed our bond, but also I think it affirmed our bond and even explained it in some ways. So yeah, that’s the short answer, I think for me.

Sway: Yeah. I think for me, I had never thought to ask, me, I would always hear stories about, you know, we have slightly different upbringings as far as just experiences as an exposures exposures.

Yeah. Growing up. So I would, I don’t think, I think this our whole time knowing each other, I never really. Put myself in his shoes for like, he would tell me stories about growing up and in school and just trying to like fight each day and literally like having fight, I’m like, Oh, I’ve never been in a fight.

Like, you know, like what, what is that like, you know, just like, that’s kind of traumatic as a kid, you know? Like how, how are you, you know, all these years later, but then also thinking about him as I just think of him as, as my husband, but not thinking that he, I just didn’t know like where, where he was emotionally.

Like, how were you feeling as a man and then as a black man, like, do you feel different? Like, I don’t know, I’m not in your shoes and I don’t. And I saw, I just, you know, wanted to know, you know, without him trying to put on an air of, Oh, I’m good. You know, I don’t, I didn’t, I just wanted to know. And I wanted him to know that I was asking about him, you know, and not just as my husband, but as a person.

And so For me, it was just really about, you know, digging and realizing how much I needed to dig, you know, just to get him to get past those layers of whatever of expectations, responsibilities, and, you know, previous conversations, how he’s always, you know, responded. So I think it was just really a nice it was a good heart to heart, you know, just to seeing like how, how were you doing?

How was your heart, what is, are you impacted at all? Or do you feel any different or have you ever experienced this at all? Or what, you know, what are your stories? And so I don’t think we’ve ever, we have talked about it cause I know things happen. But not like this, you know what I mean? In the past has been like, Oh, you dealt with that.

Okay. All right. You know but not in this situation. Well, how did it make you feel? You know, how are you doing emotionally? So I just wanted to share that. I guess I forgot that I even shared it publicly, you know, but I wanted to. To share because others may have been dealing with that and maybe had not thought about it at all.

So,

Kathy: yeah. Well, it was very powerful when I watched it and it sounds like just sometimes just creating space for people and letting them know that whatever you’re okay. But you can, you can let your guard down. You can take the mask off. I’m a safe person. And I, I thought it was a beautiful demonstration of, of empathy that probably deepened your relationship a little that’s how marriage long-term goes.

Right. We keep peeling off layers.

Thank you for sharing that.

Sway: Thank you. Thank you for bringing it up.

Kathy: Yeah, I have a couple more questions when you’re, if you were talking with a couple, say a young couple behind you. Younger, y’all are still young, but younger couple, who is thinking of one or both being entrepreneurs, what is some advice you would give them to think about as they consider this

this approach?

OL: Yeah. I think at first, what I would say is to really have a, a marriage focused definition of success,

rather than letting what may seem common or pervasive or. normative even as to the success or what success is, and even how success, quote, unquote, may even be pursued, I would say have a, a value driven centered, focused definition of success that you to set that is not especially, and I’m speaking as a believer, especially that is not dictated from the outside because. The moment I, we, as a married couple, I would say this to them begin pursuing whatever the dictated definition of success is, then our values and our priorities will really be in the background.

And that’s how it was real easy to get the, the tail wagging the dog.

Sway: That’s a good I would say something and we’ll probably right around those saying along those same lines is like the practical part of marriage. I mean, something that we were told before we got married and I would definitely share this piece of wisdom with this couple would be to protect your date nights.

Right. So keep dating because ultimately what that does is it does the same thing you were just talking about is nurturing the marriage, making sure you have time for the marriage, like you create that time and make it a priority that actually speaks. It does, it does things that it actually puts things in order without even having to,

to say certain things like we’re saying, well, no, my marriage isn’t on the back burner or no, I’m not putting everything or everyone else first it’s like, once you do this and you do this on a regular basis and you make it like a staple in your marriage, it actually sets the precedence for everything and everyone else.

Right? Like this is when we have our date nights or our date days or lunches or whatever, maybe everything else has to fall in order around that, you know, maybe kind of messy over there, but this right here, this is our space. So I would definitely say that concerning marriage. And then when it comes to the business piece of that really ties in though too, is just making sure that there are very, you know, clear boundaries, systems in place.

I would definitely recommend that they get plugged into a community. A marriage community as well as a business community. So, you know, both, and that’s the reason why we even started Marriedpreneur Life, because we didn’t have a community with both of them, you know, we would go to marriage. Yeah, I’d go to marriage counseling to get help, but it wouldn’t impact the business.

It wouldn’t teach us how to do business. And then business, they would, you know, say, throw everything into the business and then your marriage will be there after. We were like, that’s not healthy either. So you know, we will recommend that they, you know, get plugged in. I was like, get plugged into Marriedpreneur Life, , really?

So, or they can just do both ways, marriage, community, and in then business community, because both of those together, it would really help accelerate where they’re going at the same time, protecting what’s most important.

Kathy: Okay. So good. You guys, this is wonderful. And if people want information about your program and what you offer, what’s the best way for them to reach you?

Sway: Oh sure. marriedpreneurlife.com . That’s a great place to start. We have some great resources there, everything from the podcast, which is like a weekly workshop in and of itself. We have it set up now. Too, we have some training download from marriedpreneur checklist, a free download there. We have an assessment call for marriedpreneurs to set that up.

That’s an option too. And we have a marriedpreneur map, a marketing map. Like there’s lots of good stuff right there at marriedpreneurlife.com.

Kathy: Perfect. And I will spell that out and put it in the show notes. Anything else at all, that’s on your heart today, before we go, I want to give you a chance to say any final words.

OL: Yeah, I, I would just reiterate what I said. A few moments ago and that would be, you know, sit down, define success for your family and don’t let that be defined by the definition or by the, by the values of others.

Sway: Yeah. I echo that. That’s real. Just be very clear about the core and everything else will, will find its way to where it needs to be.

But as long as you all are protecting their marriage and making sure that’s priority as you’re building. And then, you know, there’s a saying that, you know, to, to balance like you’re to balance marriage and business or just life, but I don’t really espouse to that belief of balance when it comes to life, because it’s more like a juggling act at times.

And sometimes we, we drop some balls and, you know, you pick them up and sometimes things slip through the cracks cracks, but it just depends on the season that you’re in. I think it’s important to be very. Be aware of the season that you’re in. ..Some seasons, you know, the marriages extremely strong and solid, and you can afford to go in a little bit harder when it comes to the business.

And that’s fine as long as you all have that arrangement, that agreement, but there are other seasons when you need to go all in on your marriage, you know, and the business is going to have to do what it’s going to have to do. You know, you have hopefully that’s the reason that we also are very big proponents of having systems in place.

So it can, it can, it can be most efficient. And so I think it’s important to realize pursuing this like perfect balance of life with marriage and business. I think that’s like a false place. It doesn’t really exist when you really think about it. And so just being, being present where you are now is, is most important being present in what you’re to be focused in on now is most important.

And making sure that regardless of what that season is that you two are on the same page regardless and work to get there. I love that work to get there. Wait,

Kathy: if we, we do a lot of work, but there’s a lot of fun in the process and you guys are certainly models of that. And by all means, follow them on Instagram, @marriedpreneurlife .

So I want to thank you guys so much for your time today. It is wonderful to see you and I wish you all the best and I’m gonna keep following you.

Sway: Thank you so much for having us. It’s been our pleasure.

037 Buckleys

Kathy: Hey everyone. I am joined today by O L & Sway Buckley, and it is my great honor to have them today. How are you guys?

Sway: We’re wonderful!

How are you

OL: Doing very well, glad to be here? How are you?

Kathy: Good. I am doing well. Thank you. And third time’s a charm. We’ve had to reschedule a time or two, and I just thank you guys for hanging in there with me.

So welcome.

Sway: Thank you for having us.

Kathy: Tell us a little bit about where you guys are. I follow you on Instagram and I can’t quite figure out where you are.

Sway: We are in New Jersey, North Northern the Northern part of New Jersey right outside of Hey, New York city. Yeah, literally on the other side of the Hudson.

Kathy: Yes. Okay. Did you move somewhere this year? Because I remember a story about getting a bunch of stuff out of storage.

OL: So yeah. So a few years back we, we moved from Texas after having been there about 19 years,

Sway: and then those things were saying you just left it there! So she’s like, okay,

that was a prompt, right. So you can know what happened. Like how do we, what was that you were seeing is what the question was about? I get it. And so that time when we moved from Texas the things that we left there were left in moving pods. And so recently, I guess that was last year. We have my family specifically my mom’s side, we have property down in in South Carolina.

And so instead of leaving our things in the pods, now that she has, she put a house on the land. And so we just brought our things to the other property in South Carolina. So that’s what you were seeing.

Kathy: Gotcha. I have been wondering, okay. Mystery solved.

I want to start off with a couple of fun ways just to let people get to know you a little bit. If your marriage was a team sport, what would it be?

OL: Yeah, that is a great question. And I kinda, I feel like it would be two different ones. On one hand, I feel like we are bobsledding

Sway: Really? We’re bobsledding

in our marriage?

OL: Sometimes I’m pushing and she’s steering sort of the nose and sometimes I’m steering the nose. She’s pushed me. It just depends, but then I also think it’s probably a little bit of curling or is that the word curling?

Kathy: Oh, that’s funny. We all watch it in the Olympics, but it’s like, what is this?

Sway: The things you learn about your marriage on a podcast interview? I tell you

I don’t know. I would say basketball, maybe. Just the different roles. I mean, we will play different roles in, in, in each of us will we’ll do it. See, I probably shouldn’t do basketball because I don’t even know all the different players, but the goal is to get the ball inside of the basket. And so we are throwing the ball back and forth, rebounding.

And in doing, what do you call them? Don’t come in scoring. dunking

Kathy: there you go. And just so you know, I think dancing is a sport.

Sway: Yes, it is. It is. It absolutely

OL: is a lot of coordination involved there, for sure.

Kathy: Yeah. For those of you listening, you just have to follow married preneur life on Instagram because they post the most adorable.

posts And they are the best dancers ever.

I’m wanting. OL to give my husband some lessons. So there you go. Yeah. No pressure, no pressure. What is the craziest or most fun thing you guys have ever done on a date? So far?

Sway: The craziest and most fun thing we’ve done on a date for, I don’t know if we have the same answers, I would say this is crazy.

This is before we got married crazy. And I mean, it was crazy if we were married too, but young and naive when we first met not first, first, but pretty new. He was taking me to different. He was, well, I don’t know. Well, he was taking me to different places. I was new to Texas, going there for college for undergrad.

And so he was just like showing me the vision for what he saw for our life. Like, I want to sh I want to take her to this exclusive neighborhood with these houses, these huge homes who were, you know, just being, you know, built and some of them model homes or, you know, some are completed, some aren’t.

And so it was in a very it was a, you know, gated community. And so he, we drove this, I don’t know, like the area, and now I’m just like looking like, Oh, these are nice. So I’m not really thinking anything. Other than, okay, this is cool. But then he’s like, let me show you something. So he parked the car, we get out the car and it’s dark outside.

So it’s nighttime, it’s dark. And so, yeah,

OL: let me say this it’s after business hours, that’s, that’s, that’s an important part.

Kathy: So

Sway: go, we go these houses. So we ended up trespassing on a date and I felt like, I don’t know if we should be like, this is not our house. Like, this is trust me. And I’m just like, okay.

I don’t know. And so, you know, after the back hindsight, I was, you know, we talked about, I think you told your mom and then she was like, you guys should have never, what are you doing? The cops could come, and you’re trespassing

and I was like, I didn’t even know. You know? So that was kind of crazy not to look back on it. As a date, I mean, young and naive and trying to show me, take me, give me the role. Yeah,

OL: that that’s, that’s definitely a good one. I would say it would have happened during our, it was on our honeymoon. We were in Mexico and we were, she wanted us to sort of go off the resort and sorta just make our way into town.

Sway: I want to be with the people.

OL: And so we there’s a, there’s a cargo van. I don’t, I don’t know how we got this cargo van was a cargo van. You know, one of the ones with no

Sway: windows. No, you’d have to back up at the airport. When we were leaving, when we were arriving, we were leaving the airport, they have all these different people there that no, they

OL: bombard you for like the sit in on the session here, the presentation

Sway: and the timeshare

and so I signed it. Doesn’t we don’t live here. We’re not going to buy anything right now. We’re just barely. Yeah. That’s what it was a massage and a meal. And so we were like, okay, we’ll do it.that You know, we didn’t, we were so young naive & we were like, OK, that sounds like fun and so that’s when we went down, then they picked us up in a unmarked yeah.

OL: In a, in a industrial cargo van. And so we go, they couldn’t come onto the property. That should have been red flag. Number one, you have to come off the property onto the street. So I didn’t know up from down at this point. So we go off the property, go into the street, we get into the cargo van. There’s like two other guys in there.

And then I realized. I realized I forgot

Sway: to bring the paper that he gave us the paper paper.

OL: And so the guy says, Oh,

Sway: The guy says, Oh,

OL: you can leave your wife. He said, she can stay. And we’ll be here when you get back,

we’re looking at each other and she’s like, you better not leave.We’ve been married less than 24 hours.It’s funny if you ever seen those like those videos of people skydiving and like two people do it together and they’ll hold hands simultaneously. We held hands and jumped out of the van simultaneously.

Sway: Good, but, you know, they were there when we did come back and they were still waiting there and it was actually a great trip.

Like they fed us well, we listened to the presentation, but we just told the lady who just got married yesterday. So we’re not going to buy property

if we haven’t even purchased our first home together. So she’s like, okay, I’ll go. But just next time, make sure you let people know that you’re not. I’m like, okay, you didn’t ask all that. I would’ve told them, but just wanted to have us come. So they, we did that full day of massages and ended up being in a commercial.

Like for the resort, it was great. They said, Hey can

OL: can can we film you guys and put put you guys in. I was like, sure. They gave us extra food. Let us stay longer. Yeah, but our crazy days involved a little bit of danger.

Sway: Just a little bit. Yeah.

Kathy: I had a feeling. That’s why I asked that question. I haven’t asked that

I don’t think of anybody else that you guys were kind of there on the edge. And OL was glad that that wasn’t one of the times that you left her there and said, just trust me.

Sway: I would not

Kathy: Smart man smart, man. What is a book or a person that has affirmed or influenced the person you are today?

OL: Yes. So many ways to answer that. Go ahead.

Sway: I know, I would say there’s a lot of ways to answer that for me as well too, but one of the recent books. I’ve read it. I’ve read some of his books years ago, but then as of recent revisiting John Maxwell’s, book, , and reading about just the importance of how can you talking about leadership, but just how you treat people and that being a big part of, of the process of being a good leader, like really, really caring for people in order for you to, to have make deposits and then make withdrawals in that relationship.

So definitely John Maxwell is up there for me.

OL: Yeah. That’s that’s, I’m trying to pick, right. Cause I’ve been sort of checked out by several books, but if I had to choose one of them

Kathy: and you’ve got your books just line the wall behind you. So I’m sure it’s hard to pick one.

OL: There, there is one that I’ve read most recently and it’s called Gentle and Lowly.

And it’s by an author, Dane Ortlund and it’s when Christ said, you know that, that I am gentle and lowly. And so it’s really dealing with meekness and really just, just, just growing in and maturing in the love of God has been a, it’s been a great book.

Kathy: Very good. I’ll try to hunt down those titles and put those in the show notes.

So I want to hear a little bit about y’all’s backstory before we get to what you’re doing today, but I picked up through just, you know, following you guys on Instagram that you dated a very long time, tell us how you met and what, what that long courtship was about.

Sway: Yeah. Well, we met at church actually.

He was a janitor for the church at the church, and I did not know, I don’t even, he says I walked on his wet floors. I don’t even remember doing that.

OL: She ignored the yellow caution with fluorescein, so

Sway: you can ignore it. I just had to get up the stairs and the floor was wet in front of the stairs. So I still had to get to my, I had to get to the stairs, you know?

So

OL: mop the floors, somebody, just somebody just sashayed across it!

Sway: Would you have around it to get up the stairs? Like the floor was wet. So, and then I asked him a question that was actually having a pastoral meeting and to see if the past was the pastor’s office was upstairs. And so I just asked him if, you know, if the pastor was in and I, you told me yes.

And I went up the stairs. I didn’t think anything of it.

OL: So it was on a Monday. And so most churches don’t have a lot of people there on Mondays, at least not Monday morning. So I, based on what I knew, I knew that pretty much any car in the parking lot that was not mine or a few of the staff members had to have been hers.

So I went out and that’s when I saw her her little red Toyota and I said, taken, she drives a red Toyota.

Sway: It was I guess you would call it, what do you call it? You were tracking me after that.

OL: Yeah. So like, if you ask her, she would say, it’s stalking. If you ask me, I would say it’s gathering Intel

Kathy: gathering Intel.

Woo. So how long did you gather Intel, before you asked her out.

Sway: I don’t even know how long it was, because I don’t remember him. I don’t remember. I remember the pastors meet, like, meeting with that pastor because he was new at that time. And I was, I’m working on doing some things with the youth. So that’s why I remember that meeting, but he said that’s when he was there.

So I vaguely remember somebody being there. So I don’t even know time-wise how long it took for him to approach me. But I will tell you this, when he did approach me, it took a year for him to get my number. And it was just a lot of different things. And we just hadn’t seen each other a lot or, you know, when we did see each other, it was a huge church.

So by the time we run into each other over that year, that I finally, when he asked me again about it, I gave it to him and then, so that everything went really slow in that regard. I just wanted to make sure he wasn’t some crazy guy. So if he can be this patient okay. And I actually spoke with my father too, and I’d asked him, I said, this guy asked me for my number.

And he said, well, watch him, you know, watch him for a while. And I was like, I’ve watched him for a few months. And he was like, what are you thinking? And I was like, he seems okay. He’s like, okay, well give me your numbers. I was like, Oh, okay. That’s what I was supposed to do. Okay. So, and that was really like my green light just to do that next step.

But yeah, so I think it was that first year. And then the remaining nine years after that,

OL: you know, it’s so funny. Just before. I don’t, I don’t know how long it was prior to us getting here to, prior to me proposing, but I just, we, we laugh about it today. Her, her mom used to say, Hey, what’s going on with that Otis guy?

He just keeps hangin around right? Yeah.

I’ve just been hanging around for like nine years.

Sway: Oh

yeah. I think we were just really young. And so I think that plays a big part of it, for sure. I was like 19 when we met. So. And I was fresh out of high school. Well, 18, 19 going into my sophomore year of college. So, you know, it was just like, we weren’t, I don’t think we weren’t mature at that point, you know, enough to have a sustain of a marriage that will be sustained, like, but by our choosing.

So I think that was, it was just the timing of it. And then I went off to explore more of the world. I mean, my background is in dance, so I came out to New York to do some dancing and just live life, you know as a single person, we were still in a relationship, just it a long distance, but it was still like, we’re just going to be, there was nothing for me to wait around for.

I’m like, I’m not going to put my life on hold. I’m just going to keep living and, and we’ll see where this goes. And yeah. And

OL: so, yeah, and I was, I was in the music industry and sort of pursuing that life and, you know, that’s, that’s all consuming and so. You know, between that and just sort of me hanging around.

Sway: Yeah, I love it.

Kathy: Well, and that, you know, that demonstrates some wisdom really, because we were 21 and 22 and we didn’t wait around. We just said, well, let’s go. So yeah, that, to me shows some wisdom in your relationships. So you guys have been married, how long at this point?

Sway: 11 years now. 11

Kathy: years? Yeah. Okay.

Wonderful, perfect years. Right? Right.

OL: So you add it all up. I think we’ve known each other 20 years.

Kathy: That’s amazing. That’s amazing. Well, tell us also a little bit about your backgrounds. I’ve read up a little bit and and you guys, kind of came from different directions and gradually merged as entrepreneurs. So I’d like to hear a little bit about how you got to where you are today.

So whoever wants to start tell us how you, you know, kind of your work background and did you know you were an entrepreneur?

Sway: Yeah, well, for me, I started my first business at the age of 16. It was the tutoring company. I did not even know I was starting a company. I didn’t know what I was doing, but the opportunity presented itself to tutor kids.

And it started with some of my cousins who came to live with my family. And one of my youngest, the youngest cousin, it was three of them who came the youngest one, she was five and she was not reading. And it bothered me. And that, you know, 16, you don’t know what your gifts are. You don’t know that you’re a teacher.

And so I just, took some cards, index cards. And I started making, you know, little words for her, alphabet. And by the end of the week, she was reading from a book and my mom was like, that is not week. Like, yeah. She was like, that’s, that’s something special. And I was like, Oh, I don’t know. Like, I’m just a kid. I’m like, I just knew she needed help.

And I want my cousin to be able to read and she’s five, she should be reading. Like, that’s just what I thought. And so the next thing, I know, my mom told one of her girlfriends about it who had a son around the same age who was having issues reading as well. And so that was my first client. And that’s, it just grew from there.

Well, from there, I, when I went off to college, I continued tutoring, but it was more so like autistic children and happened to be all boys. And so I did a lot. And as a dance major, I did a lot of fine and gross motor skills with them, but also phonetics and just basic things with them. I enjoy working with kids.

And so. I did that. And then my sophomore year in high in college, I started, I didn’t even know what it was, but I’ve come to find out later that it was a staffing firm. So it was a staffing company. I started where the school districts partner with the school districts as my clients and as a dance major, they wanted me to meet initially to come and teach.

And of course I was trying to pay for college. And so I said, well, sure. And I could only teach, but so much because I was a full-time student dance major, double minor in business and religion. And so I started teaching and then they asked for more. Now, mind you, I’d never taught before. I just was like, okay, you’re giving me an opportunity to make some money.

That’s all I hear. So I’m going to think, and I’ve worked with enough kids, I can figure it out. It can’t be that hard. And so that’s really what I did as a, started that as a freshman into my freshman year. And then they asked for me to do more hours. And so I was like, I can’t but I didn’t want to say no, cause I’m like, this is helping me pay for tuition.

And so I said, well, can I, can I bring on people like, can I be the in-between and I can refer and bring people under me is what I was thinking. They said sure we just need people. And so I started hiring my friends, you know, I said, Hey, you want to make some money when I get paid, I’ll pay you a portion of this.

So I was able to make money off of them working in more and more people. They started hiring like needing more and more people, not just dancers, but. You know, thespians and visual artists and musicians, and I’m like, I’ll find them, I will find them. And so I was like, I would just go to the art department here at school.

I’m sure there’s some kids who want a job. And so that’s how I started. And that literally paid my way through. I mean, it’s a very expensive process, but actually, I mean, I’d say expensive. Like it, it, it really started bringing in revenue quickly, but it also opened doors for other scholarships. I ended up getting a education scholarship, a business scholarship, cause I had the business.

And then I did the religion and when I was answering phones initially and being in the religion department I was able to hear about different scholarship opportunities. Cause it was, you know, I was out of state and it was a private institution. So it was like all these fees on top of everything.

And then I was an RA, so I was just finding ways to pay for school. And so I’m thinking this is just another way. So with the religion department, I find out that there’s a scholarship. If you’re, if you minor in religion, they’ll pay half your tuition. I was like, What do I need to do to minor? Just what do I need to do?

Classes all three extra classes, sign me up. Okay. I’m a religion minor, you know, half my tuition. And then for business, I was getting scholarships, you know, because now I had this business. So bank of America was giving money. All these different donors. I was just, you know, applying for app, you know, for, for, for money.

Cause I’m like, I need to figure it out. And then the education department, because I had my business once again, working with school districts, then as my partners as my clients and none of the education majors were going after the scholarship during this time. But I, you know, was pretty persistent with going after it.

And so because of the company that I was running, the education department granted me like a full ride, even on top of the money, you know, they pay for everything. So there was some retroactive. Yeah, they, yeah. They were like, whatever you want. Wow. Yeah. So I think I had for that business, I still run it today and literally it was open door to get everything, you know, paid for my tuition.

And so after that I said, well, I’m just going to keep this job because this is, and then, you know, really quickly it brought on started earning, you know, multiple six figures and very early in on just hiring people. And I just felt like this is an opportunity to have a revenue stream and still, you know, dance, do what I love to do.

So that’s how that was the beginning of my entrepreneurial journey.

Kathy: And did you call yourself an entrepreneur at that point? Or were you, it sounds like you were just like, I need money. This is an opportunity you didn’t overthink yet.

Sway: No, I didn’t overthink it at all. I knew I wanted to do business, which is why I minored in business from jump street.

I just didn’t know what that was going to look like. And I just didn’t know. I knew it was a business. I just didn’t know. I didn’t even know what to call it. I’m like, I don’t even know what this is that I’m doing, but it’s paying the bills. I was like, you know, and so that eventually a couple of years into it, I think maybe my junior year I started thinking, well, is this a, is it a staffing firm?

Like, what is this that I’m doing? I didn’t even know. Like, what did it like, you know, I just didn’t know. And so I said, well, I think it’s a staffing firm. And then I said, well, I think, but it’s not a staffing. Cause I was, I would think like corporate America, you know, staffing in that regard. But I was like, this is not that this is something different.

I don’t even know. I’ve never seen this, what I’m doing. So I’m just gonna keep doing it and figure out what to call it. So when people would ask me what I did, I just said, I’m a dancer because I didn’t know how to explain what I did. I was just like, Oh, I dance or I teach dance, but I never explained, Oh, I run a creative art staffing firm so that, you know, a couple of years into it, I said, I think this is like a creative art staffing firm?

Like, cause at first I was like, as a dance staffing and I was like, well, it’s creative arts. But then it turned into me hiring like coders and all these other types of people that did great things for the kids as well too. So I just call it a creative arts staffing firm, to this day. That’s what it’s called.

That’s my story.

Kathy: And ed, you’re still running that. Right?

Sway: Right. It just ebbs and flows. I don’t, I’ve never done like one. I’m not gonna say never when I graduated, that’s when I started doing marketing, like grassroots marketing, knocking on doors. Boys and girls clubs. Cause I moved from that area to another city and I’m like, I have to start over, but I was like, I know what to do.

I’ve been doing it. And then I got other contracts with some pretty pretty well-funded organizations. When I started from the beginning with me teaching and then I just started bringing on people again and rebuilt it. And, but that’s the marketing that I’ve done. I haven’t done anything else in, in that sense.

So I say that to say, so when opportunities come nowadays, I’m just a pretty well oiled machine and I that’s, you know what I do in the background.

Kathy: Gotcha. Okay. And did you have a mentor, Sway, that. Maybe you didn’t even consider them a mentor at the time, but somebody in your family or a family friend or someone that also had their own business that even gave you the idea that you could do this, or was this just an internal,

Oh, it was, this can do this.

Sway: Definitely an internal I, there was a, I kind of had a freak accident. I can talk about that. I had a freak accident, the third day of college and where I was sewing a ballet shoe and I jumped off the bed and the needle broke off inside of my foot, and they thought they were going to, amputate, so long story short, all gosh, after, as my foot is swelling up, like a couple of weeks into it because nobody would touch it because the main doctor in the neighborhood said, don’t leave, like leave it in for six months or six weeks rather, and then come back.

And anyway so by the time I finally found his counterpart is equal, they were like, yeah, this needs to come out right away. So I was on crutches at first full semester. And that’s when, and I still had to go to my dance classes and watch them dance and journal and stuff. So I just, it just brought me to my knees really.

I say, okay, God, well, what is it that you have for me to do? I know this is something that’s in my heart, but also I need to know like what those gifts are that are in my hands. So I could beyond the dancing. So, you know, I can have other revenue streams. And even when I get out into the real world, I didn’t want to be in a situation where I had to dance or I had to go take a job, a dance job that I didn’t want to do to eat, you know?

And so the opportunity came when, when I got off my crutches, I had an op somebody, you know, realize I was a dance major and offer. They said they had a friend who’s doing some work with the local school district and they wanted to know if I’d be interested in teaching, like that’s how it happened.

And so, yeah, when it came to mentoring, that was later on, I would say, as I started investing in coaching. That was very intentional. It still is very intentional, but as far as how it started, it was just like very internal type of thing. Just kind of finding my way as I was going.

Kathy: Awesome. Well, thanks for sharing that.

And let’s hear your story, OL, yours is a little more varied. Shall we say I’ve done some reading and it’s fascinating.

OL: So, yeah. So while we’re, I love hearing Sway’s story every time I hear it , because it just reminds me just cause I was there. Yeah. Yeah. It was amazing. So just to see her growth and just over the time, but yeah, so, you know, for many years I wanted to do music. Pretty much all through high school and that was really my focus and my aim and my drive.

And so I pursued that.

Kathy: Do you play an instrument or singing?

OL: Performance aspect, but I also wanted to do a lot of writing and producing. And so and, and, and then even move that over into media, television, movies, et cetera. And so I thought I wanted to do that for quite a while and I pursued it. As sort of my, my backup, I thought would be broadcast journalism.

I thought, you know, it’d be great to do the news, as they say. And so I pursued that even, even in school and being originally from Chicago, there was a school that was really strong in music production as well as journalism. It was called Columbia, not Columbia like New York, but Columbia, Chicago.

So I pursued that and that was prior to me moving to Texas. And so long story short. I moved to Texas. I pretty much niched it down and pinpointed it down mostly to music. And so that was my pursuit and ended up getting assigned to an independent record company that was ran by some people who at one point worked for Warner Brothers.

And so it was myself and about three other artists and they were going to take us, cultivate us, shop us around. And then we were going to, you know, go to the majors as it, as it were. So I signed that record deal. And that was interesting. And so I ended up actually becoming an employee of the same record company because the money got tight.

And so doing that, living in an efficiency apartment and working there and I had a lot of fits and starts as often happens in the music business. Almost make it, almost make it, ..Almost make it, didn’t make it. Almost make it, almost make it, almost make it, didn’t make it. And so it was a lot of that. And so just the sort of mountain high, valley, low tumult of that really began to wear on me. Fast forward, I turned 30 and I said, you know what?

This is looking really crazy. I am pursuing music with reckless abandon. I am financially unfit, unstable inconsistent, and I’m 30. And I decided to forego school because I was almost this close. Almost make it, .Almost make it almost make it didn’t make it. And so, you know, after so many years of that, you kind of have a come to Jesus moment, as they say, and it’s like, all right, I’ve got to pivot here.

You know, I’m getting older and, you know, with an industry that’s so driven by youth, I had to really take honest account of that, particularly when you’re talking about, you know contemporary and urban music. So that being said, I, the, well, the, one of the persons that managed the label has some connections in the radio industry and they said, you know what?

You’ve got a great personality, you’d be a great sales person. I have a friend who’s a sales manager at CBS, over all of their radio stations, their whole cluster. And I think you’d be great. And so made a phone call, got an interview, got the job. All of a suddenly I’m wearing shorts and ties every day suits every day, which by the way, I had next to none of that in my wardrobe

and so I am now in this a hundred percent commission job. And this starts, this is sort of around 2008. So I think we all know what life was like in 2008 economically speaking. And so that being said I worked there for a year. Meanwhile, Sway and I are engaged. The market goes soft. I’m now back in my draw because when you work a hundred percent commission, you sort of like have to work against the draw.

Well, I was already three months behind and I really wasn’t booking any clients. So I had to make a decision, either sell something or leave. And I left because it was very, very difficult to sort of fast forward here. There was a bridge and opportunity for me to go into the banking industry. And this came through a mutual friend of,

my wife and I, one day we’re at a birthday party for a mentee of Sway’s and there’s this mutual friend of ours who is high up in the banking industry was there. Cause we sort of all kind of knew each other. And she said to me, she said, you know what? I think you’d be really good in banking. And I thought, me like, that’s a big change.

And so I thought, nah, no, no thank you. But I don’t really see it. She’s like, no seriously. And so I said, okay, long story short, I got the interview, got the job. And this is now 2009 or going into 2009. And I started off entry level, worked my way up, got my licenses. Got into wealth management, got into business banking and I am now off to the races and I’m working with peers of mine at this point, colleagues who are many of them MBAs and I’m learning the industry.

And there was one senior gentlemen who came from Merrill Lynch way back in the day. And he sort of took me under his wing and he’s seen the economy go through all kinds of stuff from the eighties. And so he’s sort of coaching me during work hours and I’m learning a lot winning started winning awards, fast-forward Sway and I get married, a year into our marriage.

Cause the bank I worked for was based out of Spain. I won an award for us to go to Spain. And we’re there now top producer, top producer from out of, yeah, actually out of all of it, which included Latin America, Europe and the U S. And so all of a sudden, the person who wasn’t a numbers guy becomes a numbers guy.

And so it was just very interesting. Yeah.

Kathy: Oh my goodness. How do you, how do you explain that kind of unaware part of yourself that was just waiting for an opportunity?

OL: Yeah, I I dunno, I think when, when life sort of especially as entrepreneurs, when we life sort of puts us in a position where we are, you know, our back is against the wall, oftentimes opportunities present themselves.

That seems so unthinkable, like for maybe our background experience or our skillset. And so saying yes, Gave me an opportunity to just jump in and learn. And when I jumped in, I was intense by the way. I read every financial book you could possibly imagine. I talked to people who were in the financial industry, people who were senior to me, and I’ve just spent a lot of time sponging and soaking up.

And so when I left from the last bank I worked for and I say left, but I actually was let go from the last bank I worked for. It was pretty sudden now, Texas is what they call an at-will state. So your first 90 days is probation and they can let you go anytime within that 90 day period with pretty much no elaborate explanation. On my 90th day, I ended up getting, let go for actually over-performing for doing too well without going into the

Sway: yeah.

Yeah. Well, you had explained to you where you were when you were recruited . I was recruited from the other

OL: banks, one bank to go to a, another bank. And when I got recruited to go to this bank, they were sort of, I’m recruiting me for a year. Courting me, should say for a year. And they they called me and said, Hey, we have an opportunity.

We know where you live. Do you still live at this address based on what you shared with us last time? And I said, yeah, they said, we can shorten your drive from basically 45 minutes in the morning and two hours in the evening to 10 minutes, one way. And so it was an opportunity for me to move up, to move management and banking is one of those business models, industries.

You kind of move around it. I get there. They interviewed me for a particular job, which actually ended up being my boss’s job. I got hired before my boss, and then my boss got hired after me. And then the guy who hired my boss and me told my boss, and he interviewed me for my bosses job, which put a target on my back.

And so from that, from there my focus was really to grow our business sector. So I worked a lot with hospitals, physicians, medical professionals, et cetera, and ended up getting this meeting with this very large hospital in North Texas. Come to find out Capital Markets was courting them. And I’m going through all this because this gets a little boring.

But bottom line is I got the, I got the interview or got the money. I was told that they were wanting for over a year and that was towed, the cease and desist. And then all of a sudden, the pats on the back, like you’re doing great. The next Monday I was told that was gonna be my last day and that thrust me into entrepreneurship.

Kathy: Okay,

go ahead. I’m sorry.

Now, say that

OL: again.

That’s it into what I do now, which is really consulting for real estate and debt restructure.

Kathy: All right. So you took what you do well, and you said, I’ll go do this on my own. Awesome. So fast forward to currently you guys do Marriepreneur Life? Yes.

Sway: Manure. Yes. You have

Kathy: a website, yes.

And a wonderful Instagram account. Tell us how you came about launching this topic.

Sway: Well I would say when we, when he left the bank and he started his own company and I was already running my business at the staffing firm, as well as the consultancy. I did start another business after that. Cause a lot of the people I was staffing, they would end up needing jobs or like wanting they needed to start their own business.

And I just ended up helping them do that. So that’s how the consultancy side, my, some of my clients and some of his clients would actually come to us individually and ask us if we would help them and their spouses, once they realized that they were needing help and we were like, we don’t do that. I don’t even know what you, what you’re looking for.

But one in particular, one friend, a couple, they were very persistent and just like for a good year, they would ask me yea, I can no, no, no. Finally we told them. We say, well maybe, maybe we’re onto something, maybe, maybe we’re overlooking something. Cause they would, people would just keep asking us for, for insight and for skills with, with, with working together with the spouse.

But not only that, but just really putting systems together and building a, you know, a legacy of family, legacy of business legacy together. And so. We were just working on our own systems for our own selves, because after he came home from the bank, I said, well, we need to have something in place. So we have, you know, accountability.

And so I just started creating different types of ways for us to do that. So I wouldn’t feel like, he wouldn’t feel like either that I was nagging wife. And so I thought it was just, you know, I thought, okay, the systems that we’re putting in place is just for us, not realizing that it was really for others to give those to others.

I didn’t know other people would need that. So that’s how we started working with couples. We just told that initial couple that we would only do work with them and that’s it. And we did a VIP day and walked them through a whole strategy for the year and all the different ideas that they were working on.

They had two young children at the time and they were homeschooling. And then the wife is a CPA and their husband is a church planner. And so it was just a lot of different things going on and they just needed systems. They needed strategy and they were low on energy and they needed clarity. So. We worked with them.

And that was that. And they were so appreciative and they started telling their friends. And so here we are today about what eight ish, nine years later. And we actually have put, you know, the, the systems and packaged them. So now we can do it in a, in a more official, in a thorough way to help other married entrepreneurs.

Kathy: Yeah. Gotcha. I was listening to one of your podcasts. I don’t remember how far back it goes, but I think y’all were at a conference and had there was a panel of other married entrepreneurs and you had wanted to be guests, maybe. I’m not sure if I’m getting this story straight or not, but There was a couple, I think maybe when you asked about being on the panel, you were turned away because the couple that had done it the year before had, since gotten divorced?

Sway: Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, a panel for married entrepreneur. This is a business conference and they did have a panel, but no one was married. Like they were, they were divorced. They were talking about how they work as partners, like just as business partners versus like married entrepreneurs.

Another couple was like married. I think they were, they were engaged and other couple, they were celebrities too, so that, you know, I understand that why they do that. But yeah, that was just insightful to say the least like I’m like you I’m.

Kathy: Yeah. I’m so grateful for the work that you guys do, because I just, I think we hear too much in society or in the business world that you, you have to sacrifice everything to have a successful business, and you guys are perfect examples and you know of, you can have a wonderful marriage and a very successful business, and it’s not one or the other. I would love to hear about as you’ve worked with different couples, what are some common challenges that couples, whether one or both are entrepreneurs,

and I get asked a lot of times, what is an entrepreneur couple? Well, if one person is an entrepreneur, the whole family is right. So it’s either one or both. Yeah.

OL: Yeah. I was just going to say, and sweetheart please go ahead. But yeah, if, if. If one of them is an entrepreneur. What we mean by that is the family is impacted in a direct way by that entrepreneurship.

Sway: Yeah, absolutely. So we’ve coined three types of Marriedpreneurs, we’d like to call them. And so there’s a spousal preneur where one spouse is working a nine to five while the other is operating the business. And there’s an indie preneur where they are building individual separate businesses and in then couple preneurs where they’re building a business together, and we have found that there are couples who are either in one of those types, but they’re wanting to transition or they are in multiple of those types.

And they’re still wanting to transition to either doing it full time or just working to get like getting their momentum going. And so I would say that’s one of the things, one of the main areas couples come to us about is just that transition. Like how to uplevel how to gain momentum, how to gain traction, what type of systems need to have in place?

What do they need to be doing? They have this big vision in their heart, and they’re not really sure what to do with it. They’re just like, we, we just want to do this, but we keep saying one day, one day, one day, but what do we need to do today to actually get to that one day? So I would say that’s one of the common denominators for the couples who approach us or ask for, for our help, would you say?

Yeah,

OL: yeah, I would just add to that, you know, so in those sort of classifications or in those categories. And I’ll just mention one as an example. You know, if, if they are indie preneurs where, you know one is running a business and the other one is running a separate business, they may well meaning want to, you know, support each other and be there for each other.

But one of the, one of the challenges that we found is that it gets to be very difficult because they end up operating like roommates. And so we get down at the dinner table. I was like, Oh, so what happened with your company? Oh, what happened with your company today? Even if they’re, if they get to get to the dinner table.

And so what happens is they end up operating like roommates and sort of like splitting the bills or one person’s business is sort of, you know, generating more revenue than the other person’s business. And so they might be at different levels within business. And so those are some of the common challenges for particularly for that group and this challenge for each of them.

But that one in particular is definitely one that is common. And so systematically we’ve. We found ways because we are that by the way, among we’ve been all three of those specifications by the way. And so we’ve learned these challenges, observed them in those couples that we’ve worked with, but also systematically how to overcome them.

Kathy: So what’s been one of the biggest challenges that you guys have faced as married preneurs, co preneurs.

That’s a

Sway: great question.

OL: My mind goes to one in particular. I remember when we were spousal-preneurs, where I was actually still working at the bank and Sway was really scaling her business and she was on webinars in our home office, all night long. And I had, you know, dealt with what I dealt with on the nine to five.

And, having these sales goals and so forth. And when I came home, I just sort of wanted to, veg out. And so what happened was, you know, I’d be cooking dinner a lot of the nights or spending time reading in the room or what have you. And she would be in the office on the webinars and doing all the training and learning and so forth.

And, and I wanted her to do those things. I, I, I didn’t want her to not do those things, but I just didn’t realize how as spousal preneurs, where one is running the business, it would actually put a strain on our marriage. And I didn’t really know how I fit into that world with her. So I didn’t even know how to support her.

So it just kind of, kind of isolated this and that, and that went on for a period of time. And so we recognize it and, and, and called attention to it.

Kathy: How did you guys end up negotiating that?

OL: I think it was a re-establishment of what’s the priority. Yeah,

Sway: I don’t think it was an overnight thing.

OL: No, it wasn’t. We didn’t arrive at that suddenly.

Sway: Yeah. I think it was you know, talking through that and, and at that same time though, I think I was also transitioning in business and I was starting to test the previous business model. And so that frustration, that rub that you had as well, just the friction of everything, we just have to have a talk, you know and, and work through like, what, what are we building?

You know, what, what are we really building? And we were brand new, like maybe two years into the marriage. I mean, that’s going on? Because then we bought our first house. We had our house built by that time, by our second year of marriage, it was a lot of new changes and just try to get a lot of new stuff.

And although we’ve known each other for so long, I was living in New York and then coming to Dallas after all that time just kinda getting reacclimated. And it was just a lot of things

OL: we know each other in this

context.

Sway: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And then just doing life together, you know and then me getting back into business really in that way.

Cause while I was away dancing, I wasn’t doing, I was still at the business, but I wasn’t like in the day-to-day as much. Cause I hired people out to do that. So I had the business based in Dallas while I was in New York working or training in dance. And so it was just a lot of new stuff. And so all of that had to come to like to the table, we had to just bring it all to them.

Okay. This is what’s working. This is, what’s not working and work and work through that and say, okay, based off of, you know, the decision. you know, that we made to be married, like, what are we wanting to build? What do we want this to look like? And I’m like, this is not looking like what I want it to look like, so we need to change some things.

So first we have to get clear about what we really wanted it to look like versus just saying what we didn’t want.

OL: Yeah. I, I think to sort of find the priority, you have to sort of sort the laundry and we had to just put everything out and just sort it. Okay. What are we working with? What’s here. What’s really important.

Sway: Yeah. You just work through that for sure.

Kathy: Awesome. Have you guys had a mentor at any point for your marriage, a marriage coach or a counselor? or pastor

Sway: Oh, we are big proponents of marriage counsel. We started marriage counseling before we were even engaged. Yup. So we knew we were gonna, like, that was a road that we were going down.

So before we were even officially engaged,

OL: we’re trying to get a head start.

Sway: Listen, we don’t, we don’t want that kind of drama. So we just. wanted to get around as many things as possible? And then once we got engaged, of course, we went through another formal counseling. And then our counselor did a recommendation after she finished our premarital.

She said that we needed to, for her recommendation, for us to get married was that we would do what do you call it? Maintenance counseling

OL: so we had to do that for at least a year after we got married as a recommendation too. Yeah, we

did it for a couple of years. I mean, we would still do it. We just moved. And so we don’t.

Sway: I mean we’re proponents of it. We would do that. So

OL: we were getting tune-ups long after,

Kathy: We do that with our cars, right? Yep. Yeah. Why would we not do that with our relationship? And yet I found, my background’s a marriage and family therapist that so many wait until it is dead on arrival. Like the engine has been driving it without oil for a hundred thousand miles, and then they want to know why their car doesn’t run. Yeah.

You know, so I love, and yet another example of the wisdom you guys have. It’s awesome. You know, last summer, another post I saw that, touched me deeply Sway was after the news of George Floyd’s death and this, it just ignited this long simmering. It had been simmering a long time, I think, in our country to just wake up to how people of color are treated differently.

And you, you did a couple of posts that were so lovely about just talking about how this was impacting. OL, , and how you were supporting him. And going back to my days of marriage therapy training, I could sum it up in a phrase and that is if a couple can have empathy for each other, there is nothing you can’t figure out and your

were just a beautiful example of that. And I would like to hear from you guys what it was like to give and to receive that empathy. Hmm

OL: Hmm, Hmm. Yeah. Wow.

I think there’s it was very comforting to me, for my wife to pursue understanding as to how I could potentially be feeling what those nuances might be and really listen listen, in the sense of, help me understand what I call the HMU help me understand. And so doing that in one sense was very.

Comforting for me, it was very it was just a, really, a really great feeling that I think in some ways confirmed our bond, but also I think it affirmed our bond and even explained it in some ways. So yeah, that’s the short answer, I think for me.

Sway: Yeah. I think for me, I had never thought to ask, me, I would always hear stories about, you know, we have slightly different upbringings as far as just experiences as an exposures exposures.

Yeah. Growing up. So I would, I don’t think, I think this our whole time knowing each other, I never really. Put myself in his shoes for like, he would tell me stories about growing up and in school and just trying to like fight each day and literally like having fight, I’m like, Oh, I’ve never been in a fight.

Like, you know, like what, what is that like, you know, just like, that’s kind of traumatic as a kid, you know? Like how, how are you, you know, all these years later, but then also thinking about him as I just think of him as, as my husband, but not thinking that he, I just didn’t know like where, where he was emotionally.

Like, how were you feeling as a man and then as a black man, like, do you feel different? Like, I don’t know, I’m not in your shoes and I don’t. And I saw, I just, you know, wanted to know, you know, without him trying to put on an air of, Oh, I’m good. You know, I don’t, I didn’t, I just wanted to know. And I wanted him to know that I was asking about him, you know, and not just as my husband, but as a person.

And so For me, it was just really about, you know, digging and realizing how much I needed to dig, you know, just to get him to get past those layers of whatever of expectations, responsibilities, and, you know, previous conversations, how he’s always, you know, responded. So I think it was just really a nice it was a good heart to heart, you know, just to seeing like how, how were you doing?

How was your heart, what is, are you impacted at all? Or do you feel any different or have you ever experienced this at all? Or what, you know, what are your stories? And so I don’t think we’ve ever, we have talked about it cause I know things happen. But not like this, you know what I mean? In the past has been like, Oh, you dealt with that.

Okay. All right. You know but not in this situation. Well, how did it make you feel? You know, how are you doing emotionally? So I just wanted to share that. I guess I forgot that I even shared it publicly, you know, but I wanted to. To share because others may have been dealing with that and maybe had not thought about it at all.

So,

Kathy: yeah. Well, it was very powerful when I watched it and it sounds like just sometimes just creating space for people and letting them know that whatever you’re okay. But you can, you can let your guard down. You can take the mask off. I’m a safe person. And I, I thought it was a beautiful demonstration of, of empathy that probably deepened your relationship a little that’s how marriage long-term goes.

Right. We keep peeling off layers.

Thank you for sharing that.

Sway: Thank you. Thank you for bringing it up.

Kathy: Yeah, I have a couple more questions when you’re, if you were talking with a couple, say a young couple behind you. Younger, y’all are still young, but younger couple, who is thinking of one or both being entrepreneurs, what is some advice you would give them to think about as they consider this

this approach?

OL: Yeah. I think at first, what I would say is to really have a, a marriage focused definition of success,

rather than letting what may seem common or pervasive or. normative even as to the success or what success is, and even how success, quote, unquote, may even be pursued, I would say have a, a value driven centered, focused definition of success that you to set that is not especially, and I’m speaking as a believer, especially that is not dictated from the outside because. The moment I, we, as a married couple, I would say this to them begin pursuing whatever the dictated definition of success is, then our values and our priorities will really be in the background.

And that’s how it was real easy to get the, the tail wagging the dog.

Sway: That’s a good I would say something and we’ll probably right around those saying along those same lines is like the practical part of marriage. I mean, something that we were told before we got married and I would definitely share this piece of wisdom with this couple would be to protect your date nights.

Right. So keep dating because ultimately what that does is it does the same thing you were just talking about is nurturing the marriage, making sure you have time for the marriage, like you create that time and make it a priority that actually speaks. It does, it does things that it actually puts things in order without even having to,

to say certain things like we’re saying, well, no, my marriage isn’t on the back burner or no, I’m not putting everything or everyone else first it’s like, once you do this and you do this on a regular basis and you make it like a staple in your marriage, it actually sets the precedence for everything and everyone else.

Right? Like this is when we have our date nights or our date days or lunches or whatever, maybe everything else has to fall in order around that, you know, maybe kind of messy over there, but this right here, this is our space. So I would definitely say that concerning marriage. And then when it comes to the business piece of that really ties in though too, is just making sure that there are very, you know, clear boundaries, systems in place.

I would definitely recommend that they get plugged into a community. A marriage community as well as a business community. So, you know, both, and that’s the reason why we even started Marriedpreneur Life, because we didn’t have a community with both of them, you know, we would go to marriage. Yeah, I’d go to marriage counseling to get help, but it wouldn’t impact the business.

It wouldn’t teach us how to do business. And then business, they would, you know, say, throw everything into the business and then your marriage will be there after. We were like, that’s not healthy either. So you know, we will recommend that they, you know, get plugged in. I was like, get plugged into Marriedpreneur Life, , really?

So, or they can just do both ways, marriage, community, and in then business community, because both of those together, it would really help accelerate where they’re going at the same time, protecting what’s most important.

Kathy: Okay. So good. You guys, this is wonderful. And if people want information about your program and what you offer, what’s the best way for them to reach you?

Sway: Oh sure. marriedpreneurlife.com . That’s a great place to start. We have some great resources there, everything from the podcast, which is like a weekly workshop in and of itself. We have it set up now. Too, we have some training download from marriedpreneur checklist, a free download there. We have an assessment call for marriedpreneurs to set that up.

That’s an option too. And we have a marriedpreneur map, a marketing map. Like there’s lots of good stuff right there at marriedpreneurlife.com.

Kathy: Perfect. And I will spell that out and put it in the show notes. Anything else at all, that’s on your heart today, before we go, I want to give you a chance to say any final words.

OL: Yeah, I, I would just reiterate what I said. A few moments ago and that would be, you know, sit down, define success for your family and don’t let that be defined by the definition or by the, by the values of others.

Sway: Yeah. I echo that. That’s real. Just be very clear about the core and everything else will, will find its way to where it needs to be.

But as long as you all are protecting their marriage and making sure that’s priority as you’re building. And then, you know, there’s a saying that, you know, to, to balance like you’re to balance marriage and business or just life, but I don’t really espouse to that belief of balance when it comes to life, because it’s more like a juggling act at times.

And sometimes we, we drop some balls and, you know, you pick them up and sometimes things slip through the cracks cracks, but it just depends on the season that you’re in. I think it’s important to be very. Be aware of the season that you’re in. ..Some seasons, you know, the marriages extremely strong and solid, and you can afford to go in a little bit harder when it comes to the business.

And that’s fine as long as you all have that arrangement, that agreement, but there are other seasons when you need to go all in on your marriage, you know, and the business is going to have to do what it’s going to have to do. You know, you have hopefully that’s the reason that we also are very big proponents of having systems in place.

So it can, it can, it can be most efficient. And so I think it’s important to realize pursuing this like perfect balance of life with marriage and business. I think that’s like a false place. It doesn’t really exist when you really think about it. And so just being, being present where you are now is, is most important being present in what you’re to be focused in on now is most important.

And making sure that regardless of what that season is that you two are on the same page regardless and work to get there. I love that work to get there. Wait,

Kathy: if we, we do a lot of work, but there’s a lot of fun in the process and you guys are certainly models of that. And by all means, follow them on Instagram, @marriedpreneurlife .

So I want to thank you guys so much for your time today. It is wonderful to see you and I wish you all the best and I’m gonna keep following you.

Sway: Thank you so much for having us. It’s been our pleasure.