Transcript Sarah & Bill Woolsey: Creating Impact through Social Enterprise

Please note: this is an AI transcription which I have edited as much as time allowed. Thank you for grace in the imperfect result. I value my friends that are unable to listen to the podcast.

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Bill & Sarah Woolsey

Kathy: [00:02:38] Bill and Sarah Woolsey. I am so happy to be here with you today at the impact Guild. We’re meeting in the offices that Sarah was the brainchild of. So I want to thank you guys so much for taking time out of your busy schedules. I just. You know, I know you have a little one, and I know it’s very, very busy.

Um, so thank you. Um, I was doing a little bit of poking around on social media yesterday and I realized something that I hadn’t noticed before. Bill, you went to Texas a and M. Sarah, you went to university of Texas. And for those of you that may not be aware or are not Texans, um, a and M and UT. Have historically had a huge rivalry and a little known fact.

I was all set up to go to UT. I was going to be in that Longhorn band, and I even had orange luggage that I got from graduation, and. Sometime that summer before the fall of my freshman year, uh, there was a scholarship opportunity at a and, M. so I was like, well, off I’ll go. So I went to an M where I met mr Mark, and the rest is history as size as they say.

So I’d like to hear, um, how in the world did you guys meet coming from, uh, these two rivalries?

Bill: [00:04:07] Yeah. Um, so we actually met. Long before we were in college, we both went as kids to lady lodge youth camp and we happened to go at the same time, the same session. Sarah grew up in Kerrville. I grew up in Corpus Christi and so we met as campers at. Laity lodge.

Sarah: [00:04:30] So we were, so we were sixth graders the year. Both of us went there for the first time. Yes. And we have this hilarious photo. We really didn’t know one another. Well, through those, like growing up years, we kind of knew of one another. We have this hilarious. Photo where we were in sixth grade, and I’m like twice as big as bill because that’s how it is in sixth grade.

And we were in the same activity, like spelunking in a cave together. Um, but so we both maintained strong threads to that camp, um, through the rest of kind of. Middle school, high school, and then college, like going back and working there in the summers. And so it was one summer where we both went back and were on staff there our junior year of college, um, that we started dating that summer of our junior year of college.

So we had, it was, it was a really great foundation cause we had a lot of mutual friends, um, because of that scenario. So even then being in two different. Cities. Um, we were able to, um, spend time with one another, but know that we had kind of foundational overlap in our friend groups and it just was a good basis, I feel like for starting relationships.

So

Kathy: [00:05:46] I love that. I love that. Um, when you were growing up, you know, everybody asks you, what do you want to be when you grow up? What, what do you remember about how you answered that.

Bill: [00:05:58] I’ll let you go first.

Sarah: [00:05:59] Oh gosh. Put me on the spot. Cause I actually, I don’t have a super clear answer to that. Um, I never fit squarely in one category.

And even what I studied in college, I ended up studying interpersonal. Communications. Cause I would say things like, I don’t know what exactly category I want to fall in. I just know that I love the relational side of working with people and I’d love that to be a base layer. Um, and so, so yeah, that’s what I did in college was that interpersonal communications and then with a business foundation, which interestingly has kind of played out to be true.

But yeah, I didn’t have a great like childhood, consistent answer. I feel like I loved being outside. I probably would’ve said veterinarian at one point in time, just for a love of dogs. I really don’t have like a medical desire in any of that. So yeah, I didn’t have a clear, I didn’t have a clear answer to that.

What’s your answer?

Bill: [00:06:58] Yeah, I don’t know that I would say that I have a clear answer to that to it, either from my childhood, what I would have told you I wanted to be when I grew up. Um, when I left for college, I left thinking I was going to be an engineer. Um, physics convinced me otherwise that it was best for everyone’s safety if I was not an engineer, so I couldn’t do physics.

And so I figured I shouldn’t build things that people go inside or, or on top of. And so I switched into the communication school and then. That was what I studied. I studied communication at a, and, M, and then eventually after a number of years doing different things, went back and did law school, which was always, I guess sort of.

In the back of my head, grew up, my father is a trial lawyer and now

Kathy: [00:07:45] my

Bill: [00:07:46] law partner and my grandfather was a trial lawyer. And so it’s sort of, people say it’s in your blood and I guess maybe it must be true.

Sarah: [00:07:53] I don’t know. In high school you had a little stint where because of that you wanted to do anything.

But

Bill: [00:07:59] yeah, I was terrible to my father in that regard. I mean, like. Just to, even to the point, you know, 18 years old, people are like, Oh, where are you going to go to law school? And I’m like, I’m not gonna go to law school. I want to do something important. Like, what a terrible thing to say to your, to your father who is a lawyer.

But, uh, I just, thankfully a very, very gracious man and either either has forgiven me for that or doesn’t remember it.

Kathy: [00:08:23] That’s great. And I, and I think that’s true for a lot of us. I mean, um. Our, our, our work path is rarely a straight path. Um, so nothing unusual about that. Um, alright, so you started dating, um, when did you actually start dating?

You said you

Sarah: [00:08:43] junior year

Kathy: [00:08:44] started junior year of college. Okay. Yeah. And, um, and then how long did you guys date before you got married?

Sarah: [00:08:54] It was, so I remember, I it, we dated about a year before we got in gage

Bill: [00:09:00] or no, a little over a year. We got engaged in November of the year that you graduated college. What would have been our senior year in college.

Sarah: [00:09:11] We dated, I feel like a little under a year, and then we were engaged for a little, for around six months, and then, so we got married at 22 okay. We were babies

Kathy: [00:09:24] that, wait, we were 21 and 20 okay. We really were young. So you guys had been married. How long

Bill: [00:09:29] at this point? 11 years. Okay.

Kathy: [00:09:32] Which will let us figure out your, your ages.

But I’ll let somebody else do the math on that. So when you were dating and, um, and then got engaged and you’re looking towards the future, what did, um, work and life purpose look like at the time? What were those conversations like?

Bill: [00:09:52] They were helter-skelter, they were everywhere. Uh, I think. Super idyllic in some regards, but also very wide open.

I mean, when we first got married, uh, we talked about everything under the sun and in so many different contexts, living overseas, opening businesses, some opening. I mean, we, we had conversations that talked around an idea like, what’s happening here at the impact guilt now. Even 12 years ago. And, uh, and so, yeah, it was, it was everywhere.

Uh, we, we started our first couple of months of marriage. We actually worked. We got married and then worked at lady lodge for that summer. And after that we were just like wide open. The world is our oyster. We have no apartment to go home to or house that we, you know, we hadn’t even lived in a mutual city for much time.

This says like, where are we going? What are we doing? And it was just. Wide open.

Kathy: [00:10:56] So what do you remember feeling about that time? Was it exciting or was that a little intimidating to have, like you said, the whole world before you,

Sarah: [00:11:04] I think I was naive enough that it was really just exciting.

yeah. Honestly. Um, well, because I’m remembering as we’re sitting here, we thought though, was going to have one more. Semester of college and at the very last minute, he was able to kind of cram 25 hours into one semester and finished faster than we expected. So it really did leave us with this very open handed season where we were like, well, we’ll do this camp thing one more summer, and then we’ll honestly take it as it comes.

, and what we ended up doing, um, is this sounds so ridiculous. It was ridiculous. Is, um, Bill bought a motorcycle that summer. And we decided to set out on this grand adventure. And so we literally strapped our tent to the back of the motorcycle, and we just were like, we’re going to hit the road and experience some of the country.

And we did. And we traveled around for just. That shy of like two months, I would say. And we had kind of made a joke like, I think you had made the , wherever it breaks down, we’re going to stop and live

Bill: [00:12:13] Mostly to get her mom’s blood pressure up.

Sarah: [00:12:15] Yeah.

Oh yeah. Well we were riding fine cause my sister and brother in law had just moved to

Sudan and so she was just happy we were in the

Bill: [00:12:25] United States, and so they had gotten married about nine months before us, and it was like, as long as we don’t go overseas, immediately we can. We got carte blanche.

Sarah: [00:12:37] So if the motorcycle did break down outside of Boulder, Oh gosh.

Kathy: [00:12:42] There could be worse places.

Sarah: [00:12:44] Exactly. Well, and we decided that too. So we ended up living there for about a year. Um, and bill had a friend there and we just got jobs that kind of paid the bills. I was a barista at a coffee shop. Bill did landscaping, and so we really were in this. Season where we just wanted to experience somewhere new and it was actually a really healthy season for our marriage.

I think it was difficult. We had no money. Like date night was like bottomless chips and salsa and soda, because that was a big splurge. But I think we learned a lot of foundational things. I think being in another state, I mean, we have really phenomenal. Families, but I think it laid this really healthy and helpful foundation for us to make friends that were mutual friends, to not be pulled in a hundred directions.

We just really enjoyed the outdoors, enjoyed where we lived, and kind of learned and formed our family as the two of us. And so I think for us, like some geographical separation and like reforming, and that. Season was really healthy and great, and it was kind of neat to be able to be in a season where we concentrated on relationships and family and jobs were just kind of jobs.

And that was okay. But after about a year, that’s where we started to feel the tension is we both wanted a bit more purpose and direction in our work. Okay. I

Kathy: [00:14:14] think that’s really wise in some ways to just, you know, set yourselves apart as a couple and define that. You know, that how you forge as, as a union and really like whatever happens, we’re going to figure this out together.

Well,

Sarah: [00:14:27] why is this generous?

It was born out of an adventurous spirit.

Bill: [00:14:33] I want to take credit for, I don’t know that we’ve made that choice knowingly, but. Retrospectively, it was really thing.

Kathy: [00:14:41] Check back in when your daughter is newly,

Sarah: [00:14:43] when

Bill: [00:14:46] I go back and forth as to whether Micah will ever hear about. The motorcycles.

Yeah. Somehow, yes.

Kathy: [00:14:55] Um, so it, it began to get a little old. The idealism began to wear off. And so what, what was the next work decision. And, and just to clarify, bill, you had your law degree at this point, or

Bill: [00:15:08] you did not? I w I had not been,

Kathy: [00:15:10] you graduated from college.

Sarah: [00:15:12] Yeah. And it wasn’t even on the radar.

It wasn’t on the radar. We, this is a bit of a long story, so I don’t know how much we want to get into, but we. Um, when we wanted to find kind of that meaningful work, we, I don’t even remember why, but we really started looking back in Texas and back, kind of in our area. And we landed on an opportunity to, um, be out at a residential foster care facility. Um, and so that is the job we took. We came back to Texas and we did a very short stint, um, as, as foster parents on this residential. Yeah. And it was short because, um, bill actually got really sick in our time out there. Um, got what we believe now was. Encephalitis in his brain, and we honestly didn’t have a lot of answers for a really long time.

So it was this very tumultuous about a year into marriage. It was a really tumultuous scenario for three months or so, where like we had to leave. Leave that job very abruptly. Go to doctors, um, for several weeks in a row, try and kind of figure things out. And we never got full answers, but we do think now kind of, it was, um, meningitis, meningitis,

Kathy: [00:16:33] scary time.

Bill: [00:16:34] We left the facility, you know, the residential facility to go to the hospital, not knowing. Well, I wasn’t thinking about it, but there was no idea of like, are we going back? Are we coming back? I mean, we didn’t take a bag or clothes or anything and we just went, and then it was pretty clear that

Sarah: [00:16:53] it was a really

Bill: [00:16:54] long time going to different doctors and things like that.

It was, um, yeah, it was. It was difficult.

Sarah: [00:17:02] Yeah. The way it affected bill was like cognitively, so just couldn’t kind of piece things together normally. Yeah. I told him it was kind of like having like a five year old, like I don’t know. It just, I mean that sounds, I don’t, I hope that doesn’t sound weird, but it was like cognitively where he was for like a couple of weeks was like very childlike.

And it’s interesting cause that’s been like formative for us in a lot of ways. But one of the things. I think because we were 23 at this point a year into marriage and, but I think it really, for me, like showed the basis of like. Bill’s spirit and who he is and just the goodness. Cause he was just like, I don’t know.

So trusting of our relationship and even when everything else was making you nervous, like would like look to me and be like, Hey. What about this? Is this okay? As well as like wanted to read scripture and like was really grounded in his faith and it was just very revealing when all the essence was stripped away to see just like the goodness of who you are as a man and I think was even cause for me then the, the, the months after that was really hard.

Just like what in the world just happened. Like very directionless. Why would any of this have happened? Because where we were living was where we were working. We were kind of like, where do we go now? What? It was very much through into this like rebuilding season, but as far as like for me, the foundation of our marriage that that built in was actually a really like beautiful one of like experiencing that pretty early on.

Just like I think tightened our bond that much more so.

Bill: [00:18:50] Yeah, definitely

Kathy: [00:18:52] fascinating. I had no idea. Yeah.

Bill: [00:18:55] Yeah. We don’t talk about it very often. In fact, some of our good friends the other day, they were like, yeah, we didn’t actually know that. You did the whole foster thing for a minute and then had this for a minute, season of sickness and then recovery and you know, dealing with that.

So, yeah.

Kathy: [00:19:12] So how long was it before then you were able to feel like your health was restored and you could move forward. And what was the next step for you guys? I

Bill: [00:19:21] think it was probably close to three months of seeing doctors and feeling. You know, before my head cleared. Um, and, and in the course of that, I saw every type of physician you can imagine and have every brain scan and test done except for a lumbar puncture.

Uh, but one of the things that happened is I was put on a medication, a mood stabilizer, and after the infection ran its course, I was sort of just super flat. And so we were, I don’t know how long that lasted us. A couple of months I took that medicine and it just had me real super, you know, I hesitate to use the word depressed because that’s like an actual diagnosis, but I just had no motivation.

No. Yeah, super apathetic. No,

Kathy: [00:20:12] we self still,

Bill: [00:20:13] we were living in Kerrville. Um, and Sarah had a part time job that she would leave for and I would not do anything until right before she’d come home cause I knew in the back of recesses of my mind like I should’ve done something today, like at least gotten out of bed and taken a shower before she comes home.

So, um, the being really. Really having no money at the time kind of actually plays into why that stopped a little bit because I kind of stopped taking the medicine to get started taking it every other day cause it was kind of expensive and then kind of lifted the fog a little bit and then I just stopped taking it, which is just against all advice of all doctors and I shouldn’t have done that probably, but I did and it kind of cleaned that out of my head after price.

Six months total. So, so are you

Kathy: [00:21:02] about nine months into this, a blip on the radar? It was probably, it probably felt like an eternity when you’re in the middle of it, because you don’t know how it’s going to end

Sarah: [00:21:12] up. Yeah. It was around six to nine months, and that was the hardest thing was just like literally never having an

Answer medically, and so living in this limbo of like, do we move forward with life or is this going to resurface? And, and that’s where I say like, that was my hardest season. It was almost not easier, but when it was crisis mode, it was crisis mode. It was kind of the aftermath that was really difficult.

But that, yeah, so vocationally then I feel like we, we did both then within a couple months, get to the point where it was like, okay. Starting to get starting a new, what’s next? And, um, bill had a relationship with, um, somebody from growing up who ran, um, a ministry, more of a nonprofit, um, sports camp for, um, a lot.

Yeah. Kind of inner city. Um, a lot of urban core. Um. Kind of kiddos who hadn’t had camp experience before, and they had an open position as the San Antonio area director. Um, and so bill took on that position and that’s what brought us to San Antonio and we both worked, um, for that, for that organization for three years.

Yeah. Um, which was a very, like, restorative time in a lot of ways. I feel like. Um, and interestingly, both of us were like, we care a lot about. Uh, you know, where our faith intersects with our work, but we don’t think that, like. Uh, ministry in this kind of sector is our longterm trajectory. And so in the course of that season, bill decided to go to law school.

Um, and I decided to go to a branding and communications agency. And so we both made a pretty hard turn. Okay. Within a couple of years from there. Yeah.

Kathy: [00:23:04] But still important information that you’re gathering about yourself and learning what you don’t like, which is as important as knowing what you do want to do.

Sarah: [00:23:14] Yeah, absolutely. Very formative for me in the work that I do now, which. We haven’t really described yet, but, um, now my work is very much about, um, kind of social enterprises and community development through business as a catalyst for investing into communities. Um, and I actually, a lot of those seeds were planted by the experience of, um, executing fundraisers and kind of donor relationships and things like that in the context we had been in that I think planted seeds for me of.

Hey is there a different way? Is there a way that we could do, um, longterm impact focused work, but where, um, the funding model actually fuels the work. Um, and I couldn’t articulate any of those things at the time. I just kind of saw some things that felt like they weren’t working their best to me. Um, and so it planted seeds for then.

When, for me, when I was in the design world, I was, um, I was doing more like the strategy work with organizations, helping them kind of articulate what their mission was, what their values were, and then therefore how that informed how they positioned themselves on a website or brochure or whatnot. And I loved those contexts.

Um, and I got. Some really great exp experiences with like going to South by Southwest and some things like that. So then when I found myself in those worlds, and I started to hear about concepts like human centered design, which is like letting, uh, designing organizations and businesses where the community really drives the solutions in response to.

Opportunities and things like that, and learned about social enterprise as this kind of hybrid where I’m building revenue models that also fueled to the impact that you were looking to create in the world. That there were kind of some of these tools in that toolkit immediately kind of sparked. So for me, it’s been reflecting on those two things, both of those seasons being kind of three, four year, um, career.

Experiences came together in a hybrid to inform like what I’m doing now. And I, I ended up talking to a lot of people now that I say, your work might , um. It just, I often describe it as this puzzle, like where, it felt like a season where you like, maybe you’re piecing a couple of things together, the way you start like a jigsaw puzzle and you kind of clump the colors together, and then you build these blobs of whatever the picture is.

And then at some point the blobs kind of connect and you start to see more clarity. And that was my experience, and I talked to enough people that that kind of seems like a. vocationally often, where like we might have different sets of experiences that, um, take some time to kind of interweave together to see where that journey is leading a little bit.

My experience.

Kathy: [00:26:13] I love that analogy and just because you’ve got so much passion going into what you’re doing and go ahead and just. Tell us please a little bit about the, the impact Guild. Um, that’s where I met you guys. Um, was it, uh, two years ago, I think we met after church. We had visited this church, Park Church in San Antonio for the first time, and I think you had a presentation outside.

right. So yes. So that’s where we met and we of course, immediately connected kindred spirits. And so tell us, Sarah, about the impact Guild and what, what it is you’re doing now, and then we’ll, we’ll come back to you, Bill, and not leave me hanging there.

Sarah: [00:26:55] Yeah. Perfect. Um, sure. So the impact Guild, um, started about two years ago, and it is a coworking community of people, um, who really are United around this idea of, Hey, how can my work, um, and the business that I’m building also engage with the community.

And so we’ve got a variety of things. Industries. You’ve got people in the education space, um, attorneys, a lot of creatives. Um. Some mental health counselors, just people all in all of these different types of industries. But it really, the, the common thread in the culture that we’re looking to build here is people who are exploring that.

And we both provide kind of the tangible, um, more. Concrete business resources of partnering with incubator and accelerator programs or hosting lunch and learns and things where you can get into the nitty gritty of the legal or the financial models or those sides of your business. But more than anything, I often hear from people this side of, um, just being connected with

like minded people who are asking those same questions and building more connectivity where people can share ideas is really like the heart of the work. Um, and I don’t know how much I have this I’ve even shared with you, but the, the impact Guild is the first kind of project of a larger organization called mission city renewal.

That felt important to start first with this, with the coworking side of things in order, because starting with the people. Really mattered. Um, building this community, but then wanted to have a structure where as ideas came up for other social enterprises and things like that, that we could help incubate those and launch those.

And we could also build, um, tools and resources to help communities and individuals who have this entrepreneurial spirit kind of think about models for how to build a business. That also does. There’s some good in the world. And um, I didn’t mention, but a big piece of that to me in my personal passion and journey is also like how does our faith intersect with that work?

Being a Christian and seeing who Jesus is in the Bible and seeing the ways that he invests in communities, I really believe there’s a lot of opportunity to see the kingdom of God coming to life in our neighborhoods. Through, you know, businesses that provide really nutrient rich food or affordable housing, or just the really tangible ways that thriving communities can be built.

And so that’s what mission city or Newell is about. Incubating projects, developing tools and resources in order to kind of. Join in what God is doing in the renewal of our neighborhoods, in our communities. And so this season of time, um, is really fun for me. Where this first two years have been about building the Impact Guild and starting to be able to put some vision behind what.

entrepreneurial spirit. It can’t chill out, which is thank God for Bill’s patience and it just like, I think you’ve seen like there’s just always more, and that’s a tension I live in is like even lately I’ve been describing in our like balance of family and life is like. He know we’re about to go spend the afternoon sitting by the pool.

And I’m like, some days, part of me,like, can’t wait to just like chill out and lounge by the pool with our family. And then balanced with this tension of like, what, what, where else next? What can we build towards next? And

Kathy: [00:30:36] so.

Sarah: [00:30:38] Yeah. So that’s a, that’s a thing I’m grateful to navigate. Um, but I’m also like very aware of the patience that Bill has and what that means for us and our family.

Kathy: [00:30:49] Yes. And I, and I wanna dive in a little more into the Impact Guild, but I want to, you know, because part of the purpose of this podcast is the intersection of the entrepreneur life and marriage. And so I’m curious, Bill, what is it like for you? Did you know that. Sarah had this entrepreneurial drive, was that even a term that you knew at any point in your life?

Bill: [00:31:16] Uh, I don’t know. So the answer is yes. I knew. I knew that Sarah would do something unique and wonderful and different. That was not the typical job when we started dating and got married and, and. Early on in our marriage. Um, I, if I could have put the term entrepreneurial drive to it, I probably wouldn’t have.

Um, I don’t know that I would have turned it that, but I knew that there was, you know, something that inside of her that would make her want to do something. Non traditional in her work and the things that she’s passionate about. Um, cause most often when we’re talking about what’s going on with mission city renewal, what the vision and the desire is, it’s not about the business aspect of it or it is about.

The purpose of it. And so I’ve have kind of always known, you know, she would not be satisfied working a traditional in a traditional job setting. And so yes, I’m always

Kathy: [00:32:21] connected to. Clear purpose.

Bill: [00:32:25] Yeah. I think bigger than definitely. And so, so, so yeah, I’ve known that there was and a lot of desire to, to be moving forward and to be looking at what’s next, um, and what’s to come and what could be done better.

Um, and so sometimes, often I find myself in the role of reminding her to look at what is and celebrate what is, instead of looking towards what is not yet. And thinking, well, we’re not here. We’re not at the end of the road yet. I was like, well, was okay, but look, it’s only been two years and look where you are today.

And that just takes you further to getting to where you want to be. And so it is a balance in that regard.

Sarah: [00:33:04] Helps keep me sane. That’s,

Kathy: [00:33:07] that’s a great balance. That’s a great balance. Would you consider yourself entrepreneurial bill? We have not gotten back to your part of the story and work and where you headed after

Bill: [00:33:16] that.

Kathy: [00:33:17] Time of illness and

Bill: [00:33:20] I would not have considered myself entrepreneurial. It’s kind of recently, um. So I, my job now, I’m an attorney. I do trial law. I defend, uh, folks who have been sued and started in my career working with a really great law firm and spent a number of years working there and then have recently left that firm to open an office, um, of my own here in San Antonio.

I partnered with my dad about a year ago. Um, he practices in Corpus and I have an office here. And so I have been over the last year. Figuring out what it’s like to run a law firm and to build a law practice and to, um, currently currently going through the process of figuring out how to furnish an office and get things like internet.

And, uh. This morning, a refrigerator in my office. Not as easy as you might

Kathy: [00:34:10] priority

Bill: [00:34:12] things. Yeah. It’s like that kind of side of things. And so I, uh, I don’t have the same level of entrepreneurial spirit that Sarah has. Um,

Kathy: [00:34:22] but something drove you to step away from what was. Probably much more security.

What do you think that was?

Bill: [00:34:32] I, you know, I, I really can’t pinpoint it honestly, but it was, uh, yeah, I guess a desire to, to create something, a desire to have my own thing that I was engaging in something of a new origin. I don’t know. Um, but it’s been fun. It’s been. A little bit terrifying, but a little bit.

Yeah. But a lot of fun.

Kathy: [00:34:57] Yeah. And just, you know, for our listeners, if I can put this together, if I’ve got the timeline right, so within the last two years, Sarah, you’ve started the impact Guild. Shortly after that bill, you left a practice and started your own, and then you guys had a baby somewhere in there.

How long ago?

Sarah: [00:35:16] Two years ago. Yeah. You know, one, one point that that makes me think of that I think is interesting is like we very much over the course of our relationship have had different seasons where the other one has made the choice to have kind of. The steadier thing and the other one’s career has been a bit more of a variable.

Kathy: [00:35:40] So saying that was intentional.

Sarah: [00:35:43] . Sometimes sometimes worked out. You know, sometimes it was actually fairly intentional and fairly financial, right.

Bill: [00:35:50] Sort of Immediate demanding need.

Sarah: [00:35:52] Yeah. Which, but I think it’s been really neat that there’s, there’s this like, Whoa. Honestly, like I’m putting my work words to it, but like collaborative spirit in nature where because our marriage and our family is the whole, there’s been different seasons where we’ve gotten to play different roles for one another.

So like, um. I maintain and I had kind of that agency job. Um, and, and kept that steadiness while bill was in law school. And then almost to the month when he graduated law school and was going inside with a steady firm, um, I was able to kind of strike out and start building. Well, yeah. First kind of another agency.

And then what, what became the impact Guild? And, um, and then after we had hit a little bit of a runway here at the impact Guild, bill got to strike out and is like building his thing. So there’s been this really neat cadence, I think, where whether it’s steady paycheck, but also just like what life could hold as far as like the change in the variation.an been a very mutual. Kind of back and forth of playing different roles in different seasons. And I’m very grateful for that. But it’s been kind of a neat dance to see. And that is something I think has really supported that growth is, I was telling bill this last night, just like his. Complete, um, mutuality in.

Um, and I think it’s been really important in what’s been building for us is that, um, I want to see him thrive in the things he’s building and he wants to see me thrive in the things that I’m building and even be an active participant in those things. And so rather than like both clamoring to like. Use the resources, whether that’s the time or the money from, for our theme, which would kind of tear, tear down a little bit and create a little bit of a downward spiral.

And that scarcity mentality. I’m so grateful. One of the things I feel like the most grateful for in our relationship and marriage is, um, kind of that, that building up spiral that I feel like has existed of him wanting to. Build into and be sacrificial in whatever that looks like the evenings away or the not making as much as we could make or things like that, um, for, for the sake of what the other one is building.

And so, um, I, I think that, that, that’s something that feels very. Healthy and helpful to

Kathy: [00:38:22] me. Yeah, I love that description. I would call that an egalitarian marriage, which, um, I think especially, you know, with your Christian background, and. Bible belt, South Christian, um, kind of version where I’m much more common is a very traditional, um, bill.

You go to work, Sarah, you stay home or even if you work, you’re primarily in charge of your daughter. And what I observed, um, Mark and I spoke at the impact, um. Hour, is that what you called it? Yes. About a year ago, I guess. And, and I remember you were there with Micah and you just, you were in charge of her so that Sarah could do her thing.

And I just, I sensed a real a that somehow, and that’s definitely one of my questions today was kind of how you guys had worked out those roles. Um, anything to add to that in terms of, uh, how, how you have. Um, gosh, I don’t think I can say it any better than you did, Sarah, in terms of the sacrifices you make for each other and that you don’t lose out in that, but that it.

It helps the other one move forward. And when you feel supported, you want to give back to the other, and so becomes this beautiful fluid, um, life-giving relationship. And, and people are drawn to that. And I think I sense that when I met you guys, which honestly is one of the reasons I asked you to come onto the show so early.

You know, this is a very new podcast, but I just sensed a real healthy, um, aspect to your relationship Bill, do you have anything to add to that?

Bill: [00:40:11] You know, I think that, so sort of to, to frame it in terms of like, how do we, how do, how do we balance both working full time and demanding roles and our relationship and our responsibility to raise.

Micah. It’s is, it comes down to, I mean, I think Sarah put it in the terms of like, it’s about edifying each other and helping each other to do, to be the most successful in those things as we can. Whether it’s the time needed with each other, the time needed with Micah, the time needed to focus on a project for, for work or to have an event or to do something.

And so it’s, it’s not, I mean, I. Well, maybe it’s nontraditional, but I don’t, I don’t really feel like the role of the wife is to stay home and care for the children, unless that’s the desire of her heart. And so I think, sure.

Kathy: [00:41:07] And for some people it’s not a right or wrong, but there are different ways. And I think it’s just, it’s a little more uncommon in the backgrounds that you’ve come from.

To find that kind of, um,

Sarah: [00:41:20] I wouldn’t say, I feel like are both sets of our parents have actually modeled that very well. So rather than coming to a new norm, we’ve gotten to kind of extend the norm that we saw,

Kathy: [00:41:33] which

Sarah: [00:41:33] had some great role models for that. You know, when example, when bill is talking, I was . I’m thinking of his like, um, his Dad. So Bill’s on the road, a fair amount, usually a couple of days a week, but like, makes it a priority. I mean, he’s been to Houston and back two days this week, which is a three hour trip there three hour trip back, um, for

Kathy: [00:41:54] that’s assuming no traffic.

Sarah: [00:41:55] Yeah, exactly. Um, but, but so he’s made a very conscious decision to say, if I don’t have to spend a night away.

I’m not going to, and there’s a lot of sacrifice and like 5:00 AM mornings that that means and things like that. But he saw the same thing. Your dad made that same choice and modeled that really well. And so, and the same thing I was thinking about like as well as like work hard but then also play hard.

And these are things like I’ve gotten to observe in the way Bill’s family does it as well. Not. Same. Mine doesn’t, but I just, it’s really neat to see those things at play where it’s like, even we were, we were kind of telling you were about to go and have some fun this afternoon and with Bill’s entire kind of family, and it’s extended on the fact that there’s a continuing education conference happening at the hotel, so they’re phenomenal at like kind of turning.

Eh, something that is a working career thing into also a chance to then turn that off and be together and play hard. And, and so I just, I think that that rhythm,

Bill: [00:43:02] they call it a

Sarah: [00:43:03] boondoggle for that.

Kathy: [00:43:08] Um,

Sarah: [00:43:09] so it’s just, I feel very grateful that we’ve seen that done well.

Kathy: [00:43:15] That. That is great. Um, and how much do you guys talk about work at home?

You know, some, again, couples have varying ways that they approach it. Some people are like, no work stays at work and when we’re home. How do you guys transition from work to home? Or do you talk about, or how do you set boundaries?

Bill: [00:43:37] I think that we talk sometimes about work too much, but we definitely.

Don’t talk about it always. And so when, I mean, so, so there’s just the like, base level practicality of it is a reality for us of, Hey, I have to be in Houston on Thursday morning at 9:00 AM, which means that I can’t drop Micah off at school like I normally would. Um. Can you get to set? Is that okay? Does that work for you?

So there’s that level of talking about it, but there’s also the level of to just talking through what’s developing, what’s coming. I mean, it’s a huge part of your life, the work that you do, especially when it’s something important to you in. So it is talked about. And so I don’t know. I don’t know that I could quantify the amount of time that we spend talking about it, but there’s definitely.

Discussion about it and we, you know, encouragement that comes from that. Because if I don’t know what’s going on in Sarah’s work world, I don’t know what’s causing her stress and strain, and I don’t know how to meet her need in that moment. If I’m aware of a board meeting that’s causing angst or tension or.

A broken plumbing issue at the building that is causing struggle. And so knowing those things allows you to have insight into what’s going on and the way that it’s affecting your spouse to not have that information, I think would put you at a huge, you know, put your way behind the power curve of knowing what’s going on with the.

The heart and mind of your other spouse.

Kathy: [00:45:11] Yeah.

Sarah: [00:45:12] Yeah. I feel like there’s a real balance and we swing both directions there. There are times when it’ll be like. Hey, I’m just having a hard time turning my brain off in this regard. And I sometimes I can sense that. I feel like there’s a desire to connect and just like move on from the work day and one of us will just like have a hard time flipping that switch off and we’ll kind of feel the tension of that a little bit.

And thankfully I feel like at our healthiest moments we’re able to kind of like just name that and say, I’m having a hard time turning it off. This is happening kind of a thing. And it are less healthy moments like that causes like, you know, inks, the bickering kind of stuff. Um, and so that’s, that’s one end of it.

But then I also love the fact that because there’s a shared investment in the work, each of us are doing, like I’m thinking I was, um. Drafting a letter that I felt kind of hung up on earlier this week. And I said, when we get home this evening, can we like have a glass of wine and sit on the porch and can I like talk through this stuff with you?

And actually like intentionally bring that home and into our conversation because of the value of what he could help draw out and bring clarity to that situation. And so there’s also this . Like being an active participant in the work as well. And so it’s kind of a kind of a both hand.

Kathy: [00:46:42] And I, I loved that you were able to ask him that.

That’s such a healthy communication tool, because if he had had a super stressful day, you know, he had the freedom to say. My brain is fried. I am done. I want to hear it, but can we do it, you know, and then maybe offer an alternative time. That’s good. Yeah.

Sarah: [00:47:03] We were laughing. One of the rhythms we’ve developed is like taco shop mornings.

we can, we can kind of tell when we haven’t connected in a while. And, um, and whether it’s the logistical side bill was describing of like. Kids’ schedules and what nights we both have something like after work hours or whatnot. Um, but we’ll, we’ll do a rhythm of probably at least once a week, um, going in the morning before we drop Micah off at her daycare to the coffee shop altogether, or the taco shop and we’ll have breakfast together.

And it’s just like more than that, it’s signifies this like. We need to like sit down and circle up, regroup, and just connect and prioritize that

Kathy: [00:47:47] and look each other in the eye. Or as Micah is running around,

Bill: [00:47:52] just kind of steal the 30 or 45 minutes back to say like, we’re gonna just pause and eat.

Breakfast and talk about what’s going on. And, and so, and we’ve also sort of, not as diligently or faithfully, but at the beginning of this year, we started doing what we call “the circle up”. And we kind of outlined a couple of different, uh, categories of things that we’re going to talk about and keep track of, and, you know, so it was like.

Sort of born out of the concept of new year’s resolutions, but like, okay, what are the things that are important to you over the next year? What are the projects that we’re going to do around our house? Neces you know, things like that. And what are the fun things that we want to try and put into the next year?

And so kind of having a touch point on those things and we keep a shared note. On our iPhones. That is that information. And it’s sometimes it’s super simple stuff, like get a copy, get Micah’s passport, or you

Kathy: [00:48:53] know, very

Bill: [00:48:54] almost business-like, but it’s just

Kathy: [00:48:55] proactive.

Bill: [00:48:56] Yeah. And it, it’s, you know, we need to find X or do this thing.

And so it’s been really helpful in that regard, just to have a rhythm of. Conversation and things that were kind of tracking a little bit, but also just keeping in our mind and in our conversations.

Sarah: [00:49:15] Yeah. It felt like the intentionality of that was helpful of like, one of the first things you brought up was like, I want to make it out to our ranch every like six weeks this year, which we haven’t done.

Whoops. But like you had a space to kind of vocalize and say, this is, this is a priority. Um, and just so that it’s not like I, you know, I’m, I’m aware like the work I do and in the best ways and in the hardest ways, like, is a lifestyle for us and for our family. There’s a lot of evenings, there’s a lot of, it’s our community.

It’s our neighborhood. It’s like we, we haven’t said yet, but like when we decided to open the impact Guild, we moved to this neighborhood. We sold our other house, we bought this house, we moved to this neighborhood. We wanted to like walk to the taco shop in the coffee shop and like make those intentional decisions.

So it, it was this lifestyle shift. But anyway, all that to say, I feel like we want to keep a space that can be equally intentional, um, to just make sure, I don’t know, I’m like, I don’t want to dominate our time. So can we create spaces where we’re both getting to like bring to the table and th and then together, decide like in this season, how are we gonna

Put things in priority order and like have shared expectations on what that looks like. So as been healthy to find those rhythms, um, and then I feel like we can feel it when we drift away from them and we can kind of come bring ourselves back to

Kathy: [00:50:43] that. Oh, I love that. Has there been a, a book or a retreat or what, what have you guys found helpful in terms of being more intentional in your marriage?

Or have you just stumbled on these things on your

Sarah: [00:50:59] own? Where did that one come from? That circle of idea came from someone else.

Bill: [00:51:09] So if I were to like pinpoint at least one of the things that has been a huge factor in the health of our marriage, it is that we both have, both of our sets of parents are still married and, and that’s. Sadly, more unique than than not. And so I think we both had some healthy modeling of marriage and communication and seeing that done well.

Um, and have seen some of the things, I mean, I think maybe even a part of it was stolen from something that my parents do every year, is they take a weekend together at new year’s time and they go and they talk about. All of the things from the past year and look into the next year. And so I think it was, I think it was kind of born out of that, and I was like, well, this is a healthy thing to do and we should, we should have this conversation and then we should touch in on it and let’s do it weekly, you know, let’s touch on these things on a weekly basis, whatever the thing may be.

Are we. Going and doing the things we said we were going to do. Are we getting this stuff’s done that we wanted to, are we having the fun? Are we, you know, connecting with friends and the things that when we sat down and really walked through, what does it look like in the next year that we want to. To do and to be about are we, are we accomplishing that?

Are we, are we finding that space? And then if we’re not making little adjustments, instead of doing it every 12 months, we, we’re like, Oh man, we kind of missed the Mark on that one last year. Let’s see if we can do it in 2020 how to check in as you go.

Kathy: [00:52:50] Right? I mean, it’s just very accepted that you set goals in business.

You don’t just open your shingle and you’re set out your shingle and then not have a plan for how you’re going to get clients or customers or expand business. Um, and it is interesting to me how often we, we kind of treat marriage like, um. It should just run on its own. Yeah. Um, I often use the analogy that, you know, you wouldn’t buy an expensive new car and drive it for a hundred thousand miles and never change the oil and never do anything to it.

So, uh, that idea of being intentional in our marriage, in our relationships, um. Is one of the drums that I beat over and over. And I love to hear that you guys are doing that. And, well, it was

Sarah: [00:53:43] a, was a hard learned lesson. I feel like a little bit. We, we had a, a pretty hard season in our marriage about four years ago.

Um, middle of law school for bill and middle of kind of agency world for me where. Well, we experienced the opposite of what we’re talking about now that we’ve kind of done in response to that, where we took small steps consistently in different directions from one another, and we were building into very different things and not making sure to kind of

Come in and reconnect. And that was one of the hardest and kind of unhealthiest seasons for us. And so I think it planted some seeds of respect for exactly what you’re saying of it doesn’t just. Maintain, it doesn’t just happen. We have to be intentional about this. And, you know, it just, it kind of gave me a really serious wake up call of like, you know, whereas when we were 22, it’s like, how do people ever not stay together?

I see very clearly now how people don’t stay together and, um, so we gotta be serious about this thing.

Bill: [00:54:55] Well, it doesn’t just happen.

Kathy: [00:54:56] What was the turning point for you guys, or kind of the aha or wake up call, as you said, that kind of made you realize, because oftentimes when people are moving apart, it’s not a huge jump.

It’s.

Bill: [00:55:10] Incremental. I can’t pinpoint a specific,

Sarah: [00:55:15] I can’t, I mean, I can in that the environment I was in actually became very toxic and there was like some harassing stuff and some things that caused me to literally have to leave that job at a moment’s notice. And I, for me, I took it then like it just threw me into a whirlwind and I took a couple of week long trip.

By myself, uh, to the Pacific Northwest and just took my tent. And I think I kind of freaked bill out. I was like, I need, I need some space. Goodness came, he, he flew up there. Um, cause I bought like a open ended one way ticket

Bill: [00:55:55] I really do feel like I had to go

Sarah: [00:55:58] get, yeah. So to me that was actually Cheryl’s turning. Cheryl’s.

Kathy: [00:56:03] Right. I

Sarah: [00:56:04] read her book. It wasn’t good. It wasn’t good. Um, yeah, no, that’s exactly what it was. And so for me it was like then coming back I was out of that, um, toxic situation and it just kind of brought everything literally to a head.

And I do think from there we kind of started like making steps back towards one another. It was helpful not to be in as unhealthy and environment, but we also, I mean, I remember having to like. Not necessarily wanting to at certain times, being like, actually the last thing I want to do is take a step towards you right now, but realizing kind of.

Having eyes open to like, but if we don’t, this is just going to keep one degree at a time going away from each other. So equally I felt like it was one degree at a time, coming back towards one another and just kind of choosing and there, there was at least for me in that season. There was. There’s this rooted kind of decision of like, well, I believe we made a covenant with one another and vow to one another.

Um, and with the Lord. And so, and this isn’t an unhealthy, toxic relationship at all. In fact, it’s a really healthy one. And so I need to take. So one step at a time back towards that thing. And so

Kathy: [00:57:26] gosh, a good reminder that love isn’t always a feeling that many times it is a choice. And that making that choice consistently restores the feeling when it has waned.

And it is normal over years. Mark and I’ve been married almost 40 years, and there’ve been plenty of times when, you know, it’s not that I dislike him, but it’s. Maybe you just go into neutral and neutral is a dangerous place to be because you’re never really neutral. You’re either moving towards someone.

Or away from someone. And so I love that you guys were able to, um, have that awareness and use that as a, as a, as a point to deepen your relationship.

Sarah: [00:58:15] I’m thankful for bill in that because I tend in conflict, neither of us are like loud conflict kind of people. Um, so we don’t have explosive. Fights. It’s just not

Kathy: [00:58:28] ours.

Pick up your tent and go.

Sarah: [00:58:30] Exactly. I withdraw. I retreat and I run away. And, um, and I’m thankful for Bill’s steadiness in, um, pressing towards that and

Kathy: [00:58:43] pursuing you.

Sarah: [00:58:44] Yeah.

Bill: [00:58:45] Yeah. I don’t have a problem with conflict. Sort of baked into my daily work.

Yeah. It’s an interesting process of figuring out how to navigate conflict with your spouse and how to, to know when to press into it. And I think the answers that you got to press into it always, because when it becomes easier to just ignore the minor, it then becomes easier to ignore. The major. And then your just completely ignoring each other and then you’re just cohabitating and on, on down the line.

So that’s when it, yeah,

Kathy: [00:59:24] you’re just roommates and nobody wants to be there. Have you guys done any personality work, disc profile, Enneagram?

Bill: [00:59:32] I will confess to you that unlike the rest of the world, I do not. I do not do those. And here’s my excuse for why I don’t participate in those things, is I, I don’t like being typecast or put into any sort of box.

And so if I told him that I would

Kathy: [00:59:54] stay there forever,

Bill: [00:59:55] if I told you I was an Enneagram 14 you would get and get to decide who I am and I don’t like that. I don’t like people thinking they can figure out who I am based on some. Thing. And I know that’s a narrow minded, small scale view of what those things are for.

But, uh,

Sarah: [01:00:15] We don’t agree on this, but I respect it.

Bill: [01:00:20] I’m beginning to entertain the possibility of thinking about taking some of them.

Kathy: [01:00:25] Maybe you can take it. Secret bill, not tell anybody what it is. The point I’m coming back to is, it’s your point about conflict is what I have found helpful is understanding cause we’re all wired.

Would you agree with that statement? We’re wired in certain ways,

Bill: [01:00:43] certainly. Yeah,

Kathy: [01:00:44] and I think, and I think there is kind of a misunderstanding about personality type. Like it fixes you in a box. Whereas. I mean, truly personality description is enduring characteristics over time, but. As I’ve done a lot of Enneagram work, it’s not about just saying, well, this is what I am.

I’m a two or a 14 there’s not 14 but could be dangerous, but it’s growth oriented. It’s about being aware of your shadow side and about, okay, where are my blind spots? And I think, you know, we can only grow so far. Um, if we’re not aware of our shadow side, if we’re not aware of what we’re not aware of, there’s a podcast.

I love typology podcast. And, um, Ian Cron sometimes says, “what do you know about me. That I don’t know about me that I should know about me.” Anyway, that’s for you to explore or not at some point, but coming back to the idea of conflict and just understanding, however you get to that place, that it’s, it’s very important, I think in marriage to understand that there is conflict.

It’s not when will there be conflict, but, or it’s not if there will be conflict, but when there will be conflict and, um. So I like what you were saying about just, you know, knowing your spouse and knowing where to push in and, um, where to back off a little bit. Um, goodness. So much more we could talk about, but I want to honor your time and, and fun plans you have ahead.

So just a couple more questions for you guys. Um, you’ve talked a little bit about, um. Ways that you reconnect. Anything else you would add in terms of what you do to intentionally to increase the intimacy, fun, and friendship in your relationship?

Sarah: [01:02:49] I’m grateful. Bill has a lot of good hobbies. Um, I think, um, well, one thing, I don’t know, I don’t have like an extremely clear answer. It just makes me, my mind immediately go to like what feels life-giving and really refreshing. And one of those things I think we’ve. Maybe not named an answer to this question, but is hospitality and, and community and, um, making sure to have regular rhythms with, um, in friendship and inviting people into our home and like they’re re, which is weird to kind of, I guess answer that in terms, but that is a, been a marker kind of, of healthy seasons for us of like, if we are connected in, um, with deep relationships and friendships and.

I’m thankful. Like one of the ways bill rests and restores is cooking delicious food. I know, which is really why this marriage

Kathy: [01:03:47] works. It’s

Sarah: [01:03:50] amazing. And so, but those rhythms, like one of them right now is like, he loves smoking things on the grill, which is. Don’t smoke. Things like is an all day process. And so it’s this fantastic rhythm right now for us to have smoked meats Saturdays in which like we have to be at home together because he’s tending to the grill literally for like almost 12 hours.

And so it brings us into our house, just kind of the three of us connecting. And then. At 5:00 PM we have a group of friends come over and kind of share in that with us. And so I just, that immediately popped into my mind is a really like wonderful manifestation of that that’s happening in this season of life where there’s both the time where we kind of just come together, just us or, or with Micah in that mix too, and have just like.

Regular at home, take a breath, family time. Um, but then on the flip side of that, like invite people into that or share time and space with others. And so it really is that kind of like back and forth that I feel like we’ve found som in

Kathy: [01:05:05] anything you’d add, Bill,

Bill: [01:05:07] I think. So Sarah mentioned that I have good ha have, I think they’re great hobbies.

Uh, awesome. But I mean, Sarah values the things that I enjoyed doing. Um, not just that she gets to eat good food, but like I love to go out and hunt and fish and go be outside. And she enjoys doing those things with me and, but also understands and respects that I times I just want to go do them by myself or with other other guys.

And I think it. Just doing the things that we enjoy together is consistently what is fun and exciting and enjoyable and not just going through the motions of our days and weeks and months, but. Yeah. Planning things that are going to be fun and, and, and truly trying to find the joy in each other’s hobbies and the things that are exciting to each other.

Um, I mean, I have gone to more art shows and things like that than I would have ever gone to if I was not married to share it. But I, I liked that stuff, which is kind of atypical, you know, it’s not something I would’ve said probably. 10 years ago, but now I find that enjoyable and it’s interesting and it’s engaging and so doing the things that your spouse likes to do, um, together, not, not

Kathy: [01:06:30] having Ling about it.

You’ve actually grown and learned something about yourself in that process

Bill: [01:06:35] and not just saying, well. That’s your thing. You go do that, that’s your thing. But recognizing that like this is life. It’s our thing to do together and to participate in together, whatever it may be. But also, Sarah is an introvert and needs alone time at at varying points in, um.

I am not an introvert. I can get my alone time in about 45 minutes, um, in a month. And so, but, but learning those things and just engaging in the things that are restorative, um. To to each other. I mean, I think for Sarah, a perfect Saturday oftentimes looks like, you know, going to the farmer’s market and then just having a slow day at home.

Um, and that is, I love doing that because I know it’s not what I would, if I were to sit down and think like, what’s my perfect Saturday? It probably starts early on the water, but it’s also can look like going to the farmer’s market and having breakfast and a slow Saturday together. And that’s. Uh, I think a huge key is doing the things together that each other wants to do.

Kathy: [01:07:41] Yeah. So great. Well, one last question. Is there anything that you’d like to share, either with your younger self or with a couple that maybe is a little bit farther behind you? Hm. Words of wisdom.

Bill: [01:08:03] In the context of marriage and entrepreneurship world, I would say read the things that your spouse is interested in. Sarah, is. Got a world of language that I didn’t understand at first because it was in this design thinking and creative world, and I didn’t, I’m not a designer and my thought processes inherently, but reading this, the, you know, reading through those things helps me understand what’s going on.

So read about the stuff that your spouse is passionate about.

Kathy: [01:08:36] Learn about their world.

Bill: [01:08:37] At least to the extent you can. I mean, Sarah knows about law to do, to understand what I do and she knows what it means when I say I have a hearing or a deposition and can know what’s going on. And I feel like I’m known enough to be dangerous to talk and to really truly understand what she does and how it operates.

So reading about the things,

Sarah: [01:09:05] what comes to my mind is. One of the pieces we already talked about, which is not underestimating the value of like taking those small steps towards one another or away from one another and just. Having the eyes to kind of like really take that seriously and recognize, but the nice thing about those being one step at a time towards your way is there doesn’t have to be perfection in that.

There won’t be perfection in that, but we can. Yeah. Adjust and respond. And so I think just that, like their relationship is this like living organism kind of a thing. And so there isn’t never going to be a set it and forget it kind of moment. Um, but which should be really fun and exciting to us. Cause I’m really glad this season of life doesn’t look like.

Six years ago did, or eight years ago did that would be dull. And so maybe that’s the entrepreneurial spirit coming to life, but like it is always in, I hope it looks different in three more years and it will, and it will. And so I just think that there’s like an excitement to that, that this thing is a living organism a little bit in and of its own regard.

But that requires. At time and attention.

Kathy: [01:10:23] Regular attention, not like every 10 years,

Sarah: [01:10:26] right? More like dog than like air plant.

Kathy: [01:10:34] Yeah. You guys have been great guests. Um, if someone wants to follow up and connect with you, where, where’s the best place to find you? And the. Social media world.

Sarah: [01:10:45] Oh, this is good. Um, bill doesn’t have any answer. He doesn’t want you to find him.

no, I think, uh, you know, we would have private stuff, but, um, our, like at the impact Guild would be where to kind of follow up with the work, mainly on Instagram and Facebook. But kind of with the work that we’re doing. And there’s a lot of community based events. Everything from like bill was saying, like art shows to, um, yeah, just different dialogue conversations that we host.

And so that’s just a fun place to kind of connect. And we’re a small organization, so if you. Message. Anything there? We will. I will. You’ll

Kathy: [01:11:27] see. All right and Bill. You don’t want to be found so

Bill: [01:11:34] people don’t need to find me if they really need me, they can get Sarah if

Kathy: [01:11:39] they need you, they’re in trouble.

Bill: [01:11:40] Right?

Kathy: [01:11:42] Well, I want to thank you guys so much, and as I like to say, you’re making a life together. Make it a great one. Thank you.

Sarah: [01:11:51] Thank you.